Amiga Clone Natami - Planned For Summer 2008

[FOL]

Originally Posted by Paul_s

I'm all for the project - I don't mean to sound negative... but when there's no updates or progression and the thing is more than half a year late what can folk do apart from wonder if it'll ever come to fruitation

Give up on it. Its just been hyped up and nothing has happened. I know its been said the site is not the official 1, but the project team should go there and say something, with regards to giving a planned release time.

Maybe they planned this.

EDIT:-Maybe this project is real, but they are stupid. They should have kept their mouths shut until they had something to show.

Im sorry, but the "why should we take the time to take a picture. People will only say its fake." is a very very stupid comment.

They have already caused their own problems by hyping up this project. It would take 10Mins tops to up some pictures. Yeh people may say its fake, but thats life.

[Samurai_Crow]

If their pictures would be something other than the super-modified C1 that's on their website then that would impress people. The fact that it isn't going to be until there is a working production prototype is what gets people worried.

That being said, we do need a new version of Mesa for the classics with GFX cards, one way or the other, so who here would be willing to start with that. It doesn't need to be 68070 optimized or anything since the '070 is going to be at least a year after the production model Natami at the earliest.

[alexh]

Originally Posted by Samurai_Crow

It doesn't need to be 68070 optimized or anything since the '070 is going to be at least a year after the production model Natami at the earliest.

Read NEVER.

FACT : It's never ever ever going to be practical to use an FPGA as a modern full speed CPU (heck using todays affordable FPGA's they would be lucky to match the speed of a 25MHz 030!)

FACT: They will never get the funding to make an ASIC or even a hardened FPGA.

[frikilokooo]

New stuff

Maybe it is not impossible to see it finished one day.

[skan]

Most impressive thing about those 060 boards is... how fugly the NatAmi silkscreen printed logo is!!! ;D

[tonyyeb]

A prototype (?) NATAMI board has arrived with Thomas:

http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?...215&order=&x=0

A few people (me included) are sceptical that NATAMI will bear fruit let alone deliver on the claims made. But this looks a little more promising.

[FOL]

Originally Posted by tonyyeb

A prototype (?) NATAMI board has arrived with Thomas:

http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?...215&order=&x=0

A few people (me included) are sceptical that NATAMI will bear fruit let alone deliver on the claims made. But this looks a little more promising.

Does that mean "its on schedule and rocking"?

Well over a year late (could be 2 years or 3 years still, who knows).

[pmc]

I've got absolutely no clue when it comes to chips and PCBs and hardware. Do any of the hardware gurus (AlexH...? Zetro...? et al) know what this new board actually means in terms of stepping towards the "final vision" of the Natami?

[Reynolds]

Show me please any "homebrew" project which have been released on time. Even OS4 was ready "when it's done', and there was a known company behind. I think we can leave all developers alone with time schedule.
On the other hand, same thing happens with CloneA for example. Who remember any deadlines? I'm pretty sure we're already passed some with that one too. And? still have to wait, althogh Individual Computers (and The Man behind it) does everything to be successfull at the end.
Amiga world doesn't mean exact timing. you have to live with that.

[FOL]

Originally Posted by Reynolds

Show me please any "homebrew" project which have been released on time. Even OS4 was ready "when it's done', and there was a known company behind. I think we can leave all developers alone with time schedule.
On the other hand, same thing happens with CloneA for example. Who remember any deadlines? I'm pretty sure we're already passed some with that one too. And? still have to wait, althogh Individual Computers (and The Man behind it) does everything to be successfull at the end.
Amiga world doesn't mean exact timing. you have to live with that.

If I remember correctly, jens never gave a timescale or deadline.

[NovaCoder]

I think it's all a bit sad

They obviously have a least one very talented individual working on this project but I don't see how it can go anywhere which is a real shame.

Maybe if they'd teamed up with Individual Computer's and ACube a while ago they could have got something to market.

I think the problem is that if you were to come up with a drop-in replacement mb (or mb's) for classic Amiga's (so called SuperAGA) with say an onboard 030 then it would only sell in large numbers if it was < 200 pounds, maybe double that if it had an onboard 060.

Or if they were to sell it as a stand-alone board (like the Mini-Mig) they would have to be asking for even less to make it a success.

I think that is the problem facing Jens with CloneA, it's clearly finished...he just does know how to make any (decent) money out of it.

The other problem that everyone overlooks is software, it's no good releasing a 'SuperAGA' MB if there is no software that takes advantage of it (eg display mode drivers).

[alexh]

Originally Posted by Reynolds

Even OS4 was ready "when it's done'

Not quite the same thing as there was lots of legal arguments surrounding it all.

Originally Posted by NovaCoder

I think that is the problem facing Jens with CloneA, it's clearly finished...he just does know how to make any (decent) money out of it.

I'd like to think it is more likely he's waiting a few years for all possible patents to have expired whereby he can find the funding to make an ASIC instead of an expensive FPGA and come up with a $50 Amiga Joystick type device.

[lost_loven]

Sounds like to me some people here are being closed minded and don't want to welcome new possibilities. If it is going to be compatible from the old chip set to aga and they have their own super aga then this could be a step up. If anything at all it will be a nice rounded solution to have modern hardware mixed in with classic amiga and have it all in one. I personaly hope this does take off.. IT just shows that the amiga dream lives on and there is people out that will continue to keep it alive. I am not tring to start a fight, I will buy one if it see's the light of day. I have followed its progress for along time and maybe something good is happening.. I don't mind waiting, I have my a500 and winuae.

LOST

[alexh]

Originally Posted by lost_loven

Sounds like to me some people here are being closed minded

Realistic, not closed minded.

Originally Posted by lost_loven

If it is going to be compatible from the old chip set to aga and they have their own super aga then this could be a step up.

Expensive step up. If they magically find a workable price point, I'll be the first to eat my hat.

It cannot possibly take off unless someone BIG releases an FPGA system for mainstream commercial use that we can steal for our purposes.

[Samurai_Crow]

Originally Posted by alexh

Expensive step up. If they magically find a workable price point, I'll be the first to eat my hat.

It cannot possibly take off unless someone BIG releases an FPGA system for mainstream commercial use that we can steal for our purposes.

On http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=1&note=11215&x=2, Thomas Hirsch said that he got a unit batch of 4 PCBs at 250 Euros each. The PCBs are 4 layers and didn't include the cost of the components (only one is assembled so far) and these are prototype boards. Once the prototypes are working properly, a mass production run is planned.

Since Thomas and Gunnar both work at IBM, maybe they know who to talk to to get a decent size production run going. Thomas seems to know what he is doing and Gunnar knows some of the production techniques used to produce working microprocessors such as PowerPC chips. Is IBM big enough for you? (I suspect you may need some salt to gulp down that hat, alexh, but I'll reserve judgment until they get the prototypes working.)

[Methanoid]

Originally Posted by Samurai_Crow

Since Thomas and Gunnar both work at IBM, maybe they know who to talk to to get a decent size production run going. Thomas seems to know what he is doing and Gunnar knows some of the production techniques used to produce working microprocessors such as PowerPC chips. Is IBM big enough for you? (I suspect you may need some salt to gulp down that hat, alexh, but I'll reserve judgment until they get the prototypes working.)

My money is on Alexh

Originally Posted by alexh

I'd like to think it is more likely he's waiting a few years for all possible patents to have expired whereby he can find the funding to make an ASIC instead of an expensive FPGA and come up with a $50 Amiga Joystick type device.

How many years would that be - any idea?

[alexh]

Originally Posted by Samurai_Crow

Once the prototypes are working properly, a mass production run is planned.

Very expensive to do a mass production run, especially of this size and complexity, add in all the work that would have to be done on quality control, testing etc. add some profit, we're looking at somewhere in the €500 region.

Originally Posted by Samurai_Crow

Since Thomas and Gunnar both work at IBM, maybe they know who to talk to to get a decent size production run going.

Depends which department they are in.

Originally Posted by Samurai_Crow

Thomas seems to know what he is doing

Yup. If you follow my posts, I never suspected anything else. Gunnar on the other hand

Originally Posted by Samurai_Crow

Is IBM big enough for you?

I worked with IBM between 2000 and 2002 in SanJose and New York state on the Juno, Vesta & Palace STB chips. I never met anyone who could help produce low cost, low volume PCB's. Some of the ones IBM made as reference designs for $99 set-top-boxes cost $1000's of dollars assembled and tested. But IBM is a big place. Ahhh, IBM. Einstimer & Booledozer I hated those tools

Originally Posted by Samurai_Crow

I suspect you may need some salt to gulp down that hat, alexh, but I'll reserve judgment until they get the prototypes working.

I'll remain sceptical but hopeful until they announce the price of retail boards.

[Lockon]

@Samurai Crow
I doubt that IBM relations might play any significant role here. Kickstarting production run isn't a rocket science being protected with firearms, in fact you only need a stockpile of cash and show starts rolling. Based uppon previous and present development, that's the 1st, 2nd and almost every following reason why some home, enthusiast proof-of-concept project halts or discontinue before reaching commercial grade RTM level. Hands down NATAMI guys seem both competent and capable HW engineers, but without some serius background/partner funding it might remain only prototype. If massproduction is defined above 1,000 units, at point where most parts suppliers add significant discount, then we're talking about anything within 350,000- 500,000 euros.

[Lockon]

@AlexH

Did you had something with DreamMultimedia motherboard design ?
I remember my DM7000 use IBM STB RISC...

[alexh]

Originally Posted by Lockon

Did you had something with DreamMultimedia motherboard design ?

No, I am not a "hardware" engineer. I am an ASIC engineer. (Hardware engineers design PCB's etc. ASIC engineers design chips).

I worked with the SoC chips at the heart of the Dreambox range. Only the early ones upto 2001. Then we left our IBM partnership and designed our own MIPS based SoC made at TSMC.