English Amiga Board


Go Back   English Amiga Board > Off Topic > OT - General

 
 
Thread Tools
Old 23 March 2019, 11:15   #21
Paul_s
Stuck in the 80s

Paul_s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Amigaville
Age: 41
Posts: 3,243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steffest View Post
Well ... According this this article https://www.thelocal.de/20180718/com...op-court-rules it's compulsory for every household in Germany to pay a monthly fee for public Television.

Is that fair? Probably not
But it seems to be the law in Germany so ...

Laws can be changed of course, so maybe talk to your local politician?
Or if you're very determined you could start legal steps (a valid way to try to overturn unfair laws)

But just acting like this law doesn't exists will get you nowhere and will indeed eventually get your accounts frozen if you refuse to pay...

Peter, you clearly are a brilliant guy with principles.
Don't be stubborn about this. I have been in a similar situation with some stupid phone bills I did not had/want to pay. Big structures like public TV or phone companies don't care about individuals: they will just send reminders and debt collectors and lawyers and lock your assets until they retrieve what is legally theirs to take.

Just pay up, clear the path again and find some other way to make your point to them.
A good definition of racketeering right there..

Sending best wishes Peter.
Paul_s is offline  
Old 23 March 2019, 14:06   #22
roondar
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,578
Note: I am very sympathetic to the problems Peter is having right now and do not wish him ill. My post here is about the principles behind it, not me saying I agree with what is happening to him personally.
---
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_s View Post
A good definition of racketeering right there..

Sending best wishes Peter.
Representative democracies deciding to tax their citizens is not racketeering. Period.

Note: the following isn't aimed at you personally

But I've gotten very, very tired of some of the ideas spread in this thread. The German government is elected by its citizens. Which means the citizens have given a mandate to this government to decide what, if anything, needs to be taxed and what the consequences for not paying taxes are.

If the citizens do not agree, they can simply elect a government that also disagrees with these taxes (and there are most likely parties in Germany that feel the same about this tax - help them to win an election and the rules will get changed). That is how representative democracy works. You don't get to decide you alone don't need to pay some tax because you feel it unjust. That's basically a giant F-U to all the other people in society.

More seriously, consequences exist for any action. If I decide not to pay a parking ticket because I (for instance) feel that they are nonsense then it's on me if I there are further consequences for this action. If I then keep persisting in not following the law for say a decade and refuse to pay anything towards that fine (like Peter has said he has done with his TV tax), those consequences are going to get worse and worse.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't agree with governments blocking bank accounts for something rather trivial like a TV tax, but I don't buy for a second that this is the first warning/action/etc the government has taken here. I'm 100% certain that he was warned repeatedly and offered ways out of this mess - that's how things work in the real world.

In the parking ticket analogy, I'd receive warnings, further fines, etc. Only if I keep ignoring these for a long time might I eventually get in real trouble (for instance, in extreme case not paying parking tickets might land me in jail).

My position is that in a representative democracy the government is not an oppressor - they are in a very real sense all of us deciding how society should be governed. The position that the government is 'evil' for enforcing the rules simply doesn't apply when you can literally get rid of all of them in the next election if you don't like those rules.

Case in point: don't like (certain) taxes?

Vote in a (f.ex. highly libertarian) government that agrees with you. If you can't manage to convince people to vote for that in high enough numbers? Then society as a whole disagrees with you that (these) taxes are unjust and you don't get what you want. It's really that simple.

To close off, I want to re-iterate that I am not saying Peter deserves to starve in any way and I hope he manages to find a way out, but I am saying he shares some responsibility for what is happening here.

Last edited by roondar; 23 March 2019 at 14:12.
roondar is offline  
Old 23 March 2019, 14:47   #23
Megol
Registered User

Megol's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: inside the emulator
Posts: 370
So this isn't blackmail, not illegal, not something that will change however many mails gets sent?

The ones to be petitioned should be the proper authorities not the ones holding the money, it isn't likely the later will choose to violate laws because of someone emailing them.
Megol is offline  
Old 23 March 2019, 15:11   #24
roondar
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,578
To reiterate this (just to be sure): I've already said I don't agree with the method used here, I think it's rather extreme considering the subject matter.

However, freezing assets (such as bank accounts) is very much something that the government of pretty much any country in the world has as part of it's laws. In other words, it's not illegal (though in some cases it can be a rather extreme instrument to use). In fact, in most countries you as a private individual can petition the courts to do this in order for a debt to be repaid. Likewise, companies can also go to courts. Sometimes government agencies get the authority to do this as well under a limited set of circumstances (and these are usually clearly defined).

Now the courts in western countries don't hand that out willy-nilly, but it does happen. Usually the person whose account gets frozen this way must have shown a total lack of willingness to even attempt to repay the debt in question before courts go to this length though. An example here would be a family member of mine. He actually had to do this at one point because he was about to go bankrupt because someone refused to pay him for work he had done (and goods he had to buy for that job). It took over a year and a half, but eventually the court did agree to freeze assets as the debtor in question clearly had the money and had received the services & goods, but just wasn't interested in paying. Note my example is not the same thing as what is happening here, it's just an example of asset freezing happening.

As such, I highly doubt petitioning the bank will help.

My personal recomendation (outside of paying) would be to get the courts to speak out on it. If Peter can show how dangerous the situation is, it's very likely such a case would be done very quickly. However, I don't feel this will stop his obligation to pay, merely that the courts will likely limit the amount of assets that can be frozen to allow for Peter to eat etc.

Last edited by roondar; 23 March 2019 at 15:18.
roondar is offline  
Old 23 March 2019, 15:13   #25
apex
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Amigaplanet
Posts: 402
As German I cannot understand this fight. I am ok with this tax. I hate the private television. :-)

Peter, I wish you all the best, even I did not understand it.
apex is offline  
Old 29 March 2019, 12:03   #26
indigolemon
Bit Copying Bard

indigolemon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Kelty, Fife, Scotland
Age: 37
Posts: 757
Got an email reply this morning, basically telling me they can't discuss someone else's account - which is fair I suppose, but it does mean they know that I know.

Hope you're OK Peter.
indigolemon is offline  
Old 29 March 2019, 12:34   #27
gulliver
BoingBagged

 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The South of nowhere
Age: 41
Posts: 2,046
Quote:
Originally Posted by indigolemon View Post
Got an email reply this morning, basically telling me they can't discuss someone else's account - which is fair I suppose, but it does mean they know that I know.

Hope you're OK Peter.
I got the same email.

Take care Peter
gulliver is offline  
Old 29 March 2019, 15:06   #28
Hewitson
Registered User
Hewitson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Age: 37
Posts: 3,501
PeterK, I'm very sorry to hear of your situation, but I don't think that a hunger strike is going to achieve anything. I know you're going through a tough time but please try and look after yourself, mate.

Free TV in Australia is 100% free. As a result more time is spent showing advertising instead of actual programmes. I'd love it if we could pay a TV fee here, but unfortunately it's not an option.
Hewitson is online now  
Old 31 March 2019, 11:28   #29
E-Penguin
Banana

E-Penguin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Darmstadt
Posts: 871
The GEZ is a con - we still get lots of crap advertisements and you have to pay extra for HD. I can certainly understand not wanting to pay this shit, but German tax bureaucracy isn't known for taking a reasonable view on such things...
E-Penguin is offline  
Old 31 March 2019, 13:34   #30
LongLifeA1200
Registered User

LongLifeA1200's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Amiga Kingdom
Posts: 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hewitson View Post
I'd love it if we could pay a TV fee here, but unfortunately it's not an option.
Uhh... you can - it's called "Pay-TV".

Your country has that option already. Pay as much as you want.
LongLifeA1200 is offline  
Old 31 March 2019, 14:29   #31
daxb
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,462
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Penguin View Post
The GEZ is a con - we still get lots of crap advertisements and you have to pay extra for HD.
Each household have to pay for public TV broadcasters in Germany. They broadcast in SD and HD. The private TV broadcasters with crap advertisements/programs broadcast in SD for free and for HD you have to pay. Furthermore Pay-TV broadcaster exists where you have to pay for watching, of course.
daxb is offline  
Old 31 March 2019, 23:04   #32
E-Penguin
Banana

E-Penguin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Darmstadt
Posts: 871
About the only German TV we watch is Die Sendung mit der Maus. Never had it on long enough to decipher the rest of it.
E-Penguin is offline  
Old 02 April 2019, 02:42   #33
AMIGASYSTEM
Registered User
AMIGASYSTEM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Brindisi (Italy)
Posts: 5,362
Quote:
Originally Posted by daxb View Post
Each household have to pay for public TV broadcasters in Germany. They broadcast in SD and HD.
As already mentioned, in Italy, to avoid that there are evaders, the tax of public TV is paid with the bills of Electricity

If you do not use TV or other TV tuning equipment, you can apply not to pay the TV fee, this is the procedure.

Last edited by AMIGASYSTEM; 02 April 2019 at 02:49.
AMIGASYSTEM is offline  
Old 02 April 2019, 08:50   #34
Hewitson
Registered User
Hewitson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Age: 37
Posts: 3,501
Quote:
Originally Posted by LongLifeA1200 View Post
Uhh... you can - it's called "Pay-TV".

Your country has that option already. Pay as much as you want.
Pay TV in Australia has more ads than free to air. Do you really want me to pay to watch ads?
Hewitson is online now  
Old 02 April 2019, 11:22   #35
gimbal
cheeky scoundrel

gimbal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Spijkenisse/Netherlands
Age: 38
Posts: 3,529
Not much different in the Netherlands... When the commercial blocks started to tap the 15-20 minutes, I just stopped watching regular TV altogether.
gimbal is offline  
Old 02 April 2019, 14:37   #36
LongLifeA1200
Registered User

LongLifeA1200's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Amiga Kingdom
Posts: 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hewitson View Post
Pay TV in Australia has more ads than free to air. Do you really want me to pay to watch ads?
Just wanted to point out the irony of what you were asking/stating. Unlike Germany, you still at least have options (including not paying for something you don't use/need/want), it's not forced as it is with them. And their mandatory fee doesn't remove advertising either.

Racketeering is a good name for what this scheme is.
LongLifeA1200 is offline  
Old 02 April 2019, 15:57   #37
Daedalus
Registered User

Daedalus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Dublin, then Glasgow
Posts: 4,433
Is it ultimately any different though to funding the TV stations from general tax income? I don't want to pay for the nuclear weapons maintained by the government where I live, but I've no choice there either. There would be more noise about it of course if every household had a compulsory "nuclear warhead tax", but the bottom line would be the same. Instead, we pay for it through VAT and income tax and simply accept it.

Advertising on TV is just about tolerable on the main Irish and British channels (discounting of course the BBC which doesn't carry them), though I don't watch much broadcast TV, and most of the time when I do it's recorded so I can simply skip the ads. But I can't stand the more frequent ads found on US TV, so I never watch it when I'm over there, and I avoid the few channels here that have started to show similarly frequent ads.
Daedalus is offline  
Old 13 April 2019, 01:21   #38
Mick
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 516
I'm a little late but well this has been pretty shocking to read, so are you being prosecuted for non payment or what? surely they can't just stop your money without any legal process? can't you claim some kind of state benefit in such an emergency? a country like Germany shouldn't be leaving citizens with no means to eat without so much as a court hearing.

You sounds like a really determined person but don't starve to death or end up homeless or they've won.
Mick is offline  
Old 13 April 2019, 17:03   #39
Hewitson
Registered User
Hewitson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Age: 37
Posts: 3,501
Quote:
Originally Posted by LongLifeA1200 View Post
Just wanted to point out the irony of what you were asking/stating. Unlike Germany, you still at least have options (including not paying for something you don't use/need/want), it's not forced as it is with them. And their mandatory fee doesn't remove advertising either.
I assumed the fee was charged because there was no advertising (as is the situation with the BBC in the UK).
Hewitson is online now  
Old 14 April 2019, 22:36   #40
Paul_s
Stuck in the 80s

Paul_s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Amigaville
Age: 41
Posts: 3,243
Quote:
Originally Posted by roondar View Post
Note: I am very sympathetic to the problems Peter is having right now and do not wish him ill. My post here is about the principles behind it, not me saying I agree with what is happening to him personally.
---

Representative democracies deciding to tax their citizens is not racketeering. Period.

Note: the following isn't aimed at you personally
Perhaps 'racketeering' was a little harsh in my analogy.. more like taking a hammer to crack a nut.

I'm certain this could have all been worked out in a more amicable way though (as you mention in your post going to court - at least the majority of judges are sympathetic in situations such as this one than trampling over someones liberty).
Paul_s is offline  
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Anyone Need OS 1.x Support? Daedalus Coders. Blitz Basic 16 09 November 2015 02:26
Providing 2 fire button support / cd32 joypad support amigapd request.Other 0 13 July 2015 18:20
AmiCDFS Support Leandro Jardim support.WinUAE 11 26 May 2012 21:11
Portaudio support (was: WinUAE support for ASIO drivers) Akira support.WinUAE 57 28 March 2009 22:15

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 05:40.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Page generated in 0.09933 seconds with 15 queries