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Old 09 March 2019, 03:35   #141
Retrofan
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Originally Posted by NovaCoder View Post
Whatever happens, it's all a bit sad.
Sorry to say, but you -with such advanced knowledges about the miggy- also somehow left the Amiga scene (your always very respectable reasons). To be honest, I've also left pending my poor incomings to this world and I've left them stopped for some time (personal reasons, just like you I believe), but my idea is to return with my poor updates & things.

But yes, it looks like we all will have to be very sad if Jens forgets about the Amiga. And also, he can't leave it without posting here and telling about it, or just making his own thread.

I just think that we all deserve that. When I entered here at EAB, Jens was like God and also he's a great piece of the modern Amiga history because of his hardware innovations.

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Old 09 March 2019, 03:43   #142
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*If* Cloanto prevails in court over Hyperion, it is possible that the next version will be published by them. What you will do next?
Hyperion is not a developer of OS3.1.4, it is just a publisher. OS3.1.4 was developed by Olaf, Thomas and few more guys in their spare time and with no financial reward...
For that to happen those developers will need to side with them... Unlikely they'll do that since they've already sided with Hyperion.

Anyhow, my point was that I haven't seen a lot from Cloanto over the years that color me impressed.
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Old 09 March 2019, 03:46   #143
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so simply keep it up. the answer has nevertheless been provided above by someone else..
How so? Buy buying non existent hardware after Cloanto pushed everyone out of business with legal steps?
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Old 09 March 2019, 04:09   #144
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How so? Buy buying non existent hardware after Cloanto pushed everyone out of business with legal steps?
i thought you are enjoying it? you may still buy hardware if you are in here just for this. there is a lot to choose from.
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Old 09 March 2019, 11:11   #145
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i thought you are enjoying it? you may still buy hardware if you are in here just for this. there is a lot to choose from.
The point is that Cloanto is causing innovative people to quit building stuff with their legal steps... iComp/Hyperion/etc.. This causes less people willing to take the step and thus less to enjoy from. When Jens stops his business a lot less new hw will be available. Prices of old stuff will go up, etc.
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Old 09 March 2019, 12:07   #146
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Originally Posted by Amon_RA View Post
For that to happen those developers will need to side with them... Unlikely they'll do that since they've already sided with Hyperion.

Anyhow, my point was that I haven't seen a lot from Cloanto over the years that color me impressed.
They only sided with hyperion since they had the sources, and in good faith believed they had the rights to distribute it. What is happening now is not because of Cloanto, but based on the actions of the other actors around them. The hate towards Cloanto in this thread is based on nothing but personal emotions and that an emulation package is not worth the same as someone making hardware.

It's unfounded hate, and it's not productive for the community or Amiga, it's just plain and simply dumb. There's nothing saying that Cloanto, now with the intellectual property of Amiga wouldn't make sure that AmigaOS 3.1.4 and its successors wouldn't get releases. Hyperion did none of the work on that project and none of the developers got paid for their work.
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Old 09 March 2019, 12:12   #147
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The point is that Cloanto is causing innovative people to quit building stuff with their legal steps...
Cloanto is defending their rights, and rightfully so. If people are quitting the "Amiga business" because they can't deal with it, so be it. I don't care if Jens quit the market. The only legal proceeding as of now is the thing between Hyperion and Cloanto. Jens threatens to quit the market if Cloanto wins that case. That's only forcing people to side with Hyperion because "else I will quit the market", do you think that is okay? I don't.
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Old 09 March 2019, 12:23   #148
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there are certainly innovative people in the community, but individual computers deliver for what i know rather conservative then innovative products. low range accelerators in comparison to people designing and building much faster boards and fpga replacements, flicker fixers in an era when you can simply connect the amiga via rgb to an lcd tv, or network or usb interfaces albeit without supporting dma. i dont know, what else they offer..

i think i might own few things built by them, but the only one im using and therefore recall is an x-surf extension, which is simply an old pc-isa card bolted on top of a zorro interface board. its a good working product, but i wouldnt call that innovative except in the sense of conserving development costs.

considering this i see a rather conscious price policy, exactly not to deliver innovatively groundbreaking products (like fast accelerators, be it fpga, for little money) in order to keep the price spectrum on certain level that allows the company to be sustained by costant sales. which is perfectly legit and reasonable business strategy, btw.

similar applies to both other developments you mention. p96 is apparently just a bugfix release similarly like ks3.1.4. which is both fine, but i wouldnt exactly call it innovative.

so, in conclusion, if such a company close down it may hit the collectors mostly, bt if this will inegatively influence innovation. remais to be seen. perhaps exactly the opposite will happen, because people will take things in their hands. (remember for instance the subject of the replacement cases)
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Old 09 March 2019, 13:33   #149
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Originally Posted by Marlon_ View Post
Cloanto is defending their rights, and rightfully so. If people are quitting the "Amiga business" because they can't deal with it, so be it. I don't care if Jens quit the market. The only legal proceeding as of now is the thing between Hyperion and Cloanto. Jens threatens to quit the market if Cloanto wins that case. That's only forcing people to side with Hyperion because "else I will quit the market", do you think that is okay? I don't.
How is sitting on software rights written decades ago helping anyone? How is going after Hyperion for bringing a needed update to 3.1 helping anyone? Ofc people who want to progress and do something nice end up being fed up. How much did Cloanto get for each 64 mini? What did they do except for opening their wallet?
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Old 09 March 2019, 13:39   #150
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Originally Posted by Amon_RA View Post
How is sitting on software rights written decades ago helping anyone? How is going after Hyperion for bringing a needed update to 3.1 helping anyone? Ofc people who want to progress and do something nice end up being fed up. How much did Cloanto get for each 64 mini? What did they do except for opening their wallet?
They only go after Hyperion because Hyperion is breaching their contract, no matter what your personal opinion is.
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Old 09 March 2019, 13:45   #151
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I agree, but there's a difference between making money as a patent troll, and making money producing actual products
*facepalm* How can someone be making money as a patent troll IF THERE ARE NO PATENTS INVOLVED? Do you know what a patent is? Do you even know how to tie your shoelaces?
This extreme ignorance and arrogance (as exemplified by your previous post) is yet another example of the disgusting crap that have been muddying up the Amiga community and helped making it a mere shadow of what it could have been...

If this person leaves his money making business because another business with a vested interest is FORCED to make the legal system determine usage rights in order to continue supporting their market - it's his damn choice. Colanto was FORCED to take this action and the one that FORCED it should act as an adult instead of whining. As should you.
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Old 09 March 2019, 13:59   #152
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*facepalm* How can someone be making money as a patent troll IF THERE ARE NO PATENTS INVOLVED? Do you know what a patent is? Do you even know how to tie your shoelaces?

This extreme ignorance and arrogance (as exemplified by your previous post) is yet another example of the disgusting crap that have been muddying up the Amiga community and helped making it a mere shadow of what it could have been...



If this person leaves his money making business because another business with a vested interest is FORCED to make the legal system determine usage rights in order to continue supporting their market - it's his damn choice. Colanto was FORCED to take this action and the one that FORCED it should act as an adult instead of whining. As should you.
Yes I incorrectly used the term patent, and I admit it was wrong. This however doesn't change the situation.

Just shut the fuck up with your moral crap portraying the Amiga community as being any different back in the days. It never was glorious, stop living in your made up memories. Some people want to see Cloanto doing something useful instead of sitting on shit they bought years ago.
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Old 09 March 2019, 13:59   #153
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*facepalm* How can someone be making money as a patent troll IF THERE ARE NO PATENTS INVOLVED? Do you know what a patent is? Do you even know how to tie your shoelaces?
Do you know what the term "patent troll" refers to? It's got nothing to do with patents as such — it's all about companies whose only income is based on rights to work done by other companies, acquired through dubious circumstances, and who use those rights to make life worse for other companies actually producing something.
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Old 09 March 2019, 14:04   #154
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They only go after Hyperion because Hyperion is breaching their contract, no matter what your personal opinion is.
We're not lawers here, we all have personal opinions, just like you have. You're free to give yours, just like I'm free to give mine. My opinion is that desperately holding on onto bought rights is blocking progress... If I'm not allowed to voice this opinion on an Amiga forum so be it and they should block me.
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Old 09 March 2019, 14:10   #155
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Originally Posted by idrougge View Post
Do you know what the term "patent troll" refers to? It's got nothing to do with patents as such — it's all about companies whose only income is based on rights to work done by other companies, acquired through dubious circumstances, and who use those rights to make life worse for other companies actually producing something.
Thanks... It made me doubt for a minute if the term meant something different in the English language. I guess not
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Old 09 March 2019, 14:18   #156
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We're not lawers here,
how do you know? at least there are obviously people with a different level of competence.

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we all have personal opinions, just like you have. You're free to give yours, just like I'm free to give mine.
thats fine. you have been pretty insistive about your opinion while (imho) you have not been eble to support it in argumentative discussion. at least i havent noticed you replying to merits. just being repeatetively emotional about the situation.

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My opinion is that desperately holding on onto bought rights is blocking progress... If I'm not allowed to voice this opinion on an Amiga forum so be it and they should block me.
i think you have made yourself clear enough. but try to see it from the other end. try to imagine you have a business your existence is dependant on and while someone tries to compromise it, others step in to lecture you how you should give up on it for their best benefit, and thats the only moral choice.

btw the above applies to any company also in amiga field, such as hyperion or individual computers themselves. its their decisions and their responsibility.

Last edited by wawa; 09 March 2019 at 14:33.
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Old 09 March 2019, 14:48   #157
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It depends on how (if) they are linked together.

It gets hazy, but if they communicate through public interfaces, for example but not limited to stdin/stdout/stderr and don't link together, then they don't have to both be GPL.

They also only have to make GPL'ed source available to people they distribute to (whether the binary was paid for or given freely) and they only have to make it available for up to 3 years from distribution and on request. It doesn't have to be on the website for everyone forever.

If you bought from them in the last three years and it's GPL'ed, then they are required to give it to you on request.
Thank you for the explanation.
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Old 09 March 2019, 15:05   #158
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All the fighting needs to end so people can enjoy their retro hobbie in peace.
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Old 09 March 2019, 15:44   #159
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All the fighting needs to end so people can enjoy their retro hobbie in peace.

With so many people eager to side with a party I suspect that taking sides in a fight is a hobby in itself for many...
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Old 09 March 2019, 16:55   #160
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Originally Posted by Amon_RA View Post
We're not lawers here, we all have personal opinions, just like you have. You're free to give yours, just like I'm free to give mine. My opinion is that desperately holding on onto bought rights is blocking progress... If I'm not allowed to voice this opinion on an Amiga forum so be it and they should block me.
I never said you're not entitled to and can voice your opinion. However, when it's put out as a statement of fact while it's wrong is just dumb.

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With so many people eager to side with a party I suspect that taking sides in a fight is a hobby in itself for many...
It feels very much like that. The people who voice their opinion and are the loudest are the ones we see though. A lot of emotional investment.

I can't understand why people chose to side with Hyperion in any of this, as they haven't done anything themselves besides owning a license. All work on AmigaOS 4 is done by external contractors(?), and the development has been stagnant for years with loads of issues and unsupported hardware and broken promises. A-Eon has done more work to support and update AmigaOS 4. AmigaOS 3.1.4 isn't made by Hyperion either, but also by external "contractors" who hasn't even gotten paid for their work (their own words).

How can someone stand by that and think it's okay? And they did it while breaching a contract that was written in 2009 after years of legal proceedings. Cloanto didn't start this process. Hyperion did. iComp just happens to side with Hyperion for some reason, and threatens to quit if Hyperion loses. For me, that's very childish behaviour from a supposed "professional".

Last edited by Marlon_; 09 March 2019 at 17:08.
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