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Old 08 March 2019, 17:49   #81
OlafSch
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Originally Posted by gulliver View Post
The problem with the license Cloanto had was that it was only for one product.

Cloanto developed various different Amiga Forever products, and they took the freedom, all by themselves, to include P96 in all of them, despite only having license for one.

During its entire existance, P96 was never licenced without restrictions, as Cloanto might want to suggest.

Just take a look at the old P96 archive and read its documentation on how was licensing handled to get a more realistic view on the matter.

It is very expensive to get into lawsuits for individuals. The P96 team, was unhappy about many companies that abused their licenses and failed them (just remember when Elbox did the same with the Mediator boards). Individuals don't stand a chance in any courtroom unless they have a big pile of cash to back them up when they go against a company. So I don't blame them for not suing back then.
Different products? Amigaforever was further developed like any software. That is the same like saying a new version of Windows (or Mac OS or any other software) is a "new" product. I never heared of anything like that. To avoid such a nonsense discussion they should not have relied on a email exchange but on a written contract created by a attorney but they propably did not expect something like now.
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Old 08 March 2019, 17:50   #82
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5 pages of mass hysteria...
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Old 08 March 2019, 17:55   #83
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Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd View Post
Lower Price? You mean homebrew productions, or maybe semi-professional. Of course he can't compete with that price-wise. Better? Maybe true for some products. But it's sometimes a highly adventurous act to buy specific homebrew hardware. I for myself mostly prefer a real retailer, especially when it comes to more expensive hardware.

But one thing seems very clear. Some people wishes him to fall due to his "not so easy" character in the past. I'm not the biggest fan of him as a person from time to time. But as a C64/Amiga hardware developer i appreciate everthing he did so far. Maintaining a real company bearing all the regulations/laws and problems that comes with it.
I talk about Vampire and the future standalone devices. They replace most of Jens expensive hardware projects at a much lower price. Of course not everyone likes vampire and the ideas behind but it seems to me logical that it heavily affects his potential market.

And on another forum you say people disliking him wishing him to fall and that not shows good character but (as a developer) you should know that the way how people see you of course affects your chances in a market and Jens S. certainly was not very interested to be seen in a good light. As long as you have a kind of monopoly you can afford to do that but not if you have competition. And he is not alone in the "classic market" anymore, something he wanted to avoid obviously
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Old 08 March 2019, 18:00   #84
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Different products? Amigaforever was further developed like any software. That is the same like saying a new version of Windows (or Mac OS or any other software) is a "new" product. I never heared of anything like that.
Are you sure? I can tell you that Windows 95 is certainly not the same product as Windows 10.

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To avoid such a nonsense discussion they should not have relied on a email exchange but on a written contract created by a attorney but they propably did not expect something like now.
I fully agree with you on this. Both Cloanto and the P96 team should have demanded the other to sign a contract.
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Old 08 March 2019, 18:02   #85
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I talk about Vampire and the future standalone devices. They replace most of Jens expensive hardware projects at a much lower price.

Can't see where it e.g. endanger something like the planned Amiga reloaded (which seems close enough to an A1200 anyway). Yes, i don't like the Vampire and don't consider it Amiga-A-Like. And it targets only a very small group of people. I would imagine that 8/10 still active Amiga users don't care about it neither. Is he really interested in that market segment too? I don't think so. Maybe more in providing the licences for the newer P96 driver, but not to design own hardware which makes the Amiga extremly more "modern".
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Old 08 March 2019, 18:05   #86
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And it's things like this that make me want to leave anything Amiga related far behind. Not the lawsuit itself, that different parties have different views on ownership and other rights leading to the civilized way to settle things is normal if not desirable. But the comments and fanboyism... Makes me sick.

Schoenfeld made this situation and as a proper company (as he so often stated he is, unlike apparently all other hardware manufacturers in the Amiga world) should take the consequences.
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Old 08 March 2019, 18:05   #87
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Are you sure? I can tell you that Windows 95 is certainly not the same product as Windows 10.



I fully agree with you on this. Both Cloanto and the P96 team should have demanded the other to sign a contract.
MSDOS and Windows certainly are different products but not the Windows line. Of course all might have been rewritten in the background but it is still Windows. Maxon f.e. sells Cinema 4D but current version has nothing to do with Amiga version, it is a completely rewrite. But nobody would say it is a different product
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Old 08 March 2019, 18:08   #88
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Can't see where it e.g. endanger something like the planned Amiga reloaded (which seems close enough to an A1200 anyway). Yes, i don't like the Vampire and don't consider it Amiga-A-Like. And it targets only a very small group of people. I would imagine that 8/10 still active Amiga users don't care about it neither. Is he really interested in that market segment too? I don't think so. Maybe more in providing the licences for the newer P96 driver, but not to design own hardware which makes the Amiga more extremly more "modern".
even if you are a "retro-nerd" I doubt that your numbers are realistic. For me his hardware is overpriced but that has everybody to decide himself. For hardcore fans only old hardware is real hardware anyway.
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Old 08 March 2019, 18:10   #89
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MSDOS and Windows certainly are different products but not the Windows line. Of course all might have been rewritten in the background but it is still Windows. Maxon f.e. sells Cinema 4D but current version has nothing to do with Amiga version, it is a completely rewrite. But nobody would say it is a different product
Windows 95 and Windows 10 were marketed and sold as different products.

And even then if you get to the currently sold Windows, it is not a single product: you have the embedded developer product, the system integrator product, the home product, the businesses oriented product, the server product, etc.
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Old 08 March 2019, 18:11   #90
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Opens closet.
Looks at boxes inside aquired over the last 8 years.
+- 10 iComp boxes, 3 Hyperion boxes, 0 Cloanto boxes (had one but threw it away because the shit didn't work).

Enough said I think.
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Old 08 March 2019, 18:12   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd View Post
Can't see where it e.g. endanger something like the planned Amiga reloaded (which seems close enough to an A1200 anyway). Yes, i don't like the Vampire and don't consider it Amiga-A-Like. And it targets only a very small group of people. I would imagine that 8/10 still active Amiga users don't care about it neither.
The demand for Vampire series boards is quite high for something 80% of the market "don't care" about. I rather think it's too expensive for the common use case of classic gaming. It's in line for the price of next-gen Amiga-like hardware such as the AmigaOne series.

Back on subject: Jens' A1200 like reloaded platform using the original chips was an avenue to sell more accelerator cards. Nothing more. If he leaves it opens up the market for someone else to take over.
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Old 08 March 2019, 18:12   #92
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Yeah, would love to see a comprehensive poll on that matter too. Then the "new gen" or "super modern" Amiga fraction would be probably surprised and get a proper reality check.

1. WinUAE
2. Classic Amiga or something like MiSTer.
.
.
.
.
Vampire
.
.
.
NextGen
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Old 08 March 2019, 18:19   #93
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I fully agree with you on this. Both Cloanto and the P96 team should have demanded the other to sign a contract.
Ahem... The individual users who paid the 30 DM or 20 USD single license fee don't have a signed contract either. Now, do you expect them to pay Jens more money to keep using P96?

Ahem2... The 2000 DM Cloanto paid (in addition to the unspecified amount previously paid) certainly covered more than an individual user's license.
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Old 08 March 2019, 18:32   #94
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Ahem... The individual users who paid the 30 DM or 20 USD single license fee don't have a signed contract either. Now, do you expect them to pay Jens more money to keep using P96?

Ahem2... The 2000 DM Cloanto paid (in addition to the unspecified amount previously paid) certainly covered more than an individual user's license.
You should definately read the documentation on how licensing was handled.

I don't expect anything.

I am just pointing out what is the point of the matter.

Today Cloanto sells three products and two of them contain P96:
https://www.amigaforever.com/popup-compare/

In the past they had other products too.
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Old 08 March 2019, 18:34   #95
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You should definately read the documentation on how licensing was handled.

I don't expect anything.

I am just pointing out what is the point of the matter.

Today Cloanto sells three products and two of them contain P96:
https://www.amigaforever.com/popup-compare/

In the past they had other products too.
That are two editions of one product, not two products

But that will not be decided by us but by court
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Old 08 March 2019, 18:37   #96
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That are two editions of one product, not two products
Windows Embedded Edition is not the same product as Windows Server Edition.
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Old 08 March 2019, 18:48   #97
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Originally Posted by Amon_RA View Post
Opens closet.
Looks at boxes inside aquired over the last 8 years.
+- 10 iComp boxes, 3 Hyperion boxes, 0 Cloanto boxes (had one but threw it away because the shit didn't work).

Enough said I think.
Yes, it says you don't care about the facts here just what you got out of it. Unless I've misunderstood your point in which case no, not enough said.

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That are two editions of one product, not two products

But that will not be decided by us but by court
As it should be.
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Old 08 March 2019, 18:55   #98
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Yes, it says you don't care about the facts here just what you got out of it. Unless I've misunderstood your point in which case no, not enough said.





As it should be.
Of couse I only care what I get out of it... I am a customer, not a freaking lawyer.

All I see is that Cloanta or however the fuck they call themselves didn't deliver shit the last few years, nor did they contribute something valuable from an Amiga hobbyist point of few (a few emulators and Kickstarter roms that didn't work).

This makes me conclude that they're only in it for the money.
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Old 08 March 2019, 19:06   #99
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This makes me conclude that they're only in it for the money.
Ehem. Of course they are. Everybody is, including Jens, Hyperion, AEON or whomever I forgot. You shouldn't forget that these are all commercial vendors, and they certainly need to make a living. That is all fine with me. If you don't like their products, don't buy them.
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Old 08 March 2019, 19:10   #100
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Ehem. Of course they are. Everybody is, including Jens, Hyperion, AEON or whomever I forgot. You shouldn't forget that these are all commercial vendors, and they certainly need to make a living. That is all fine with me. If you don't like their products, don't buy them.
I agree, but there's a difference between making money as a patent troll, and making money producing actual products
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