English Amiga Board


Go Back   English Amiga Board > Support > support.Hardware

 
 
Thread Tools
Old 16 November 2019, 19:11   #41
dlfrsilver
CaptainM68K-SPS France
dlfrsilver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Melun nearby Paris/France
Age: 42
Posts: 8,219
Send a message via MSN to dlfrsilver
Quote:
Originally Posted by solarmon View Post
Excuse my ignorance - but why shouldn't an IPF be used? I thought the whole point of an IPF (assuming it is an official one) is that it is for archiving with a view of writing back to disk - as described at:

http://www.softpres.org/glossary:ipf

Without any prior experience with archiving and restoring, then what you have just said, to me, does not compute!
Conversion tools can't convert them correctly in most case in other formats.

In order for them to be CORRECTLY converted in another format, all the writing instructions should also be converted. It's not the case, that's why the output result doesn't work.

I did some tries with Amiga, Amstrad CPC or Atari ST titles, It works better if you convert from flux dump to an external format.
dlfrsilver is offline  
Old 16 November 2019, 20:03   #42
Jeff_HxC2001
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Paris / France
Posts: 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlfrsilver View Post
Conversion tools can't convert them correctly in most case in other formats.

In order for them to be CORRECTLY converted in another format, all the writing instructions should also be converted. It's not the case, that's why the output result doesn't work.

I did some tries with Amiga, Amstrad CPC or Atari ST titles, It works better if you convert from flux dump to an external format.

The issue is that these "writing instructions" can't be stored in the SCP file format or Kryoflux raw dump format since these formats don't support them...
Anyway this issue is also true with disk flux dump : You still need to know where is the track write splice
Jeff_HxC2001 is offline  
Old 16 November 2019, 20:40   #43
lesta_smsc
Registered User

lesta_smsc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,974
I'm aware that dumps with KF also cannot be written directly bad but was hoping it might be different with GW.

Seems I'm having success with IPF to SCP now with track shift.
lesta_smsc is offline  
Old 16 November 2019, 20:51   #44
dlfrsilver
CaptainM68K-SPS France
dlfrsilver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Melun nearby Paris/France
Age: 42
Posts: 8,219
Send a message via MSN to dlfrsilver
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_HxC2001 View Post
The issue is that these "writing instructions" can't be stored in the SCP file format or Kryoflux raw dump format since these formats don't support them...
Anyway this issue is also true with disk flux dump : You still need to know where is the track write splice
exactly Jeff

Blind write doesn't work most of the time.
dlfrsilver is offline  
Old 16 November 2019, 20:53   #45
lesta_smsc
Registered User

lesta_smsc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,974
Why are the formats not implementing these splice details when they are so important. It's like locking something in a safe and then not having the keys to unlock. It's stored... But becomes difficult to retrieve.
lesta_smsc is offline  
Old 16 November 2019, 21:45   #46
r.cade
Registered User
r.cade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Augusta, Georgia, USA
Posts: 367
Send a message via AIM to r.cade Send a message via MSN to r.cade Send a message via Yahoo to r.cade
Writing is not an easy thing to implement in a one-size-fits-all way. The only thing the drive knows and sends is the "bitstream" and when the index signal happens, and that is all that can be stored when reading it.

A lot of copy protections rely on this and will have data "over" the index signal on purpose, which means you have to manually evaluate each track and adjust it to even have a chance to write it back properly. Couple this with needing the exact amount total flux transitions on those tracks (meaning drive motor must be 100% the same or else you stretch/shrink the timing and hope it still passes the protection) and you have a tough task to "remaster" many originals with high success.

If it were as simple as blindread/blindwrite then copy protection would be useless. Using a flux read/write tool does not change this dynamic 30 years later.
r.cade is offline  
Old 17 November 2019, 02:52   #47
lesta_smsc
Registered User

lesta_smsc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,974
@dlfrsilver - should the need arise, would imaging using GW be useful (for those who do not have KF)? Also, you mentioned extended-ADFs in another thread, what exactly are these and how are they useful now when IPF are available? Can Extended-ADFs be written to ADF using the usual tools and could they simulate the long tracks / copylock etc in doing so?

Last edited by lesta_smsc; 17 November 2019 at 03:06.
lesta_smsc is offline  
Old 17 November 2019, 08:24   #48
dlfrsilver
CaptainM68K-SPS France
dlfrsilver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Melun nearby Paris/France
Age: 42
Posts: 8,219
Send a message via MSN to dlfrsilver
Quote:
Originally Posted by lesta_smsc View Post
@dlfrsilver - should the need arise, would imaging using GW be useful (for those who do not have KF)? Also, you mentioned extended-ADFs in another thread, what exactly are these and how are they useful now when IPF are available? Can Extended-ADFs be written to ADF using the usual tools and could they simulate the long tracks / copylock etc in doing so?
disk analyse will have to pair with the GW.

Extended ADF are emulator use only, they can only simulate long tracks, but not copylocks or any exotic protections.
dlfrsilver is offline  
Old 17 November 2019, 11:14   #49
lesta_smsc
Registered User

lesta_smsc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,974
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlfrsilver View Post
disk analyse will have to pair with the GW.
Sorry but I'm not sure how to do that. I thought Disk Analyse was used as alternative to image format conversion lol. I tried to create the windows binary from source but cygwin not playing ball. It doesn't appear to open and nothing via command line. May need to retry with another package.
lesta_smsc is offline  
Old 17 November 2019, 11:56   #50
solarmon
Registered User

solarmon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 612
Keir kaffer has previously suggested he would eventually build/merge disk-analyse into GW, or something like that.

For the build environment, I would suggest you set up a WSL 2 environment on Windows:

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/win...l/wsl2-install

Then use these instructions to build Disk-Utilities/disk-analyse:

https://github.com/keirf/Disk-Utilit...ysOnWindows.md
solarmon is offline  
Old 17 November 2019, 11:57   #51
Jeff_HxC2001
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Paris / France
Posts: 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by lesta_smsc View Post
Sorry but I'm not sure how to do that. I thought Disk Analyse was used as alternative to image format conversion lol. I tried to create the windows binary from source but cygwin not playing ball. It doesn't appear to open and nothing via command line. May need to retry with another package.
I am not sure that you are talking about the same thing.

What dlfrsilver means is that the stream disk analysis (not the tool ) and write routines must be coupled with the read/write HW. You can't expect 100% good result by just using a stream file to write it to a disk without analyse it.

The hardware must know :

- Where to start to write.
- Where the write should stop.
- Where to generate the "weak-bits".

And these parameters and the bitstream must be adapted / changed regarding your floppy drive RPM speed...

Simple index to index write only works properly with non protected / index synced disks.
Jeff_HxC2001 is offline  
Old 17 November 2019, 14:28   #52
lesta_smsc
Registered User

lesta_smsc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,974
So if @kaffer was to implement such checks into the read/write we may be in a better position to use the tool 'as is' without the need to track shifts?...

@dlfrsilver - from a preservation perspective, would GW generated SCP dumps be as useful as the dumps generated from raw stream via KF? For example, would SPS consider dumps made by any other platform other than KF?
lesta_smsc is offline  
Old 17 November 2019, 15:04   #53
Jope
-
Jope's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Helsinki / Finland
Age: 39
Posts: 7,435
Quote:
Originally Posted by lesta_smsc View Post
@dlfrsilver - from a preservation perspective, would GW generated SCP dumps be as useful as the dumps generated from raw stream via KF? For example, would SPS consider dumps made by any other platform other than KF?
Basically the take home from this thread is, that blind SCP dumps are equally useless for mastering disks as blind KF RAW dumps are.

Sometimes it works, for warez disks it often works well, but nothing is guaranteed when the disk has some nasty patterns written to it.

For preservation, I believe the SCP dump has the same data as the KF RAW dump, so yes, it is possible to analyse them and create something that can be mastered back with precision.

As for the SPS, I believe they are only accepting dumps done with the KF/DTC, as their toolchain is focused on that file format and they know about any possible quirks of the dumping hardware.
Jope is offline  
Old 17 November 2019, 23:09   #54
dlfrsilver
CaptainM68K-SPS France
dlfrsilver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Melun nearby Paris/France
Age: 42
Posts: 8,219
Send a message via MSN to dlfrsilver
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jope View Post
Basically the take home from this thread is, that blind SCP dumps are equally useless for mastering disks as blind KF RAW dumps are.

Sometimes it works, for warez disks it often works well, but nothing is guaranteed when the disk has some nasty patterns written to it.

For preservation, I believe the SCP dump has the same data as the KF RAW dump, so yes, it is possible to analyse them and create something that can be mastered back with precision.

As for the SPS, I believe they are only accepting dumps done with the KF/DTC, as their toolchain is focused on that file format and they know about any possible quirks of the dumping hardware.
the problem is that the SCP card digitize the signal. Therefore, you can't analyse the signal per se. That's the reason why i stopped using it.

The kryoflux board heavy dumps can be easily analysed, because the flux is neat and any error is easy to spot.

Basically, we are not allowed to process KF raw dumps converted from SCP files.
dlfrsilver is offline  
Old 17 November 2019, 23:35   #55
lesta_smsc
Registered User

lesta_smsc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,974
Great work with .IPF @dlfrsilver and SPS team

Following the track shift implementation (as outlined by @Jeff_HxC2001) I've had great results with writing using GW. I tested Mortal Kombat as I knew it was not able to copy this using X-COPY and my original disk so I wrote one with GW and it worked perfectly!

It's a shame really because I threw away so many disks when the floppy disk developed errors. Now I could have written a new disk and/or transfer the magnetic a trip across.
lesta_smsc is offline  
Old 17 November 2019, 23:56   #56
solarmon
Registered User

solarmon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 612
Quote:
Originally Posted by lesta_smsc View Post
It's a shame really because I threw away so many disks when the floppy disk developed errors. Now I could have written a new disk and/or transfer the magnetic a trip across.
I've recently had success with restoring (reconditioning) the floppy disk magnetic media using a strong rare earth magnet. This was even after cleaning, formatting and erasing the disk several times did not seem to get it to work (when I know the game should work - on another test floppy disk). So even apparently bad floppy disks can be given a new lease of life.

I don't know the science/tech behind it and how long it would last and how good/bad it actually is for the floppy disk media, but it works and this was the last resort before replacing it anyways.
solarmon is offline  
Old 18 November 2019, 00:17   #57
lesta_smsc
Registered User

lesta_smsc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,974
Quote:
Originally Posted by solarmon View Post
I've recently had success with restoring (reconditioning) the floppy disk magnetic media using a strong rare earth magnet. This was even after cleaning, formatting and erasing the disk several times did not seem to get it to work (when I know the game should work - on another test floppy disk). So even apparently bad floppy disks can be given a new lease of life.



I don't know the science/tech behind it and how long it would last and how good/bad it actually is for the floppy disk media, but it works and this was the last resort before replacing it anyways.
That's very interesting! That means I may not have had to transplant the magnetic media! Ah what a shame!

Maybe the magnetic ability is disrupted and so a strong magnet resets this.
lesta_smsc is offline  
Old 18 November 2019, 08:08   #58
Jope
-
Jope's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Helsinki / Finland
Age: 39
Posts: 7,435
My speculation on the magnet treatment is, that if you have a disk that is written with a different alignment compared to your drive, there will be cross talk that you can't get rid of. The strong magnet will convert the entire platter into noise, thus when you write, there will be no misaligned tracks to compete with your fresh tracks.

The magnet doesn't change the properties of the media or wear it out, unless you scrape it across the surface and scratch the media.
Jope is offline  
Old 18 November 2019, 11:44   #59
Jeff_HxC2001
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Paris / France
Posts: 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jope View Post
The strong magnet will convert the entire platter into noise, thus when you write, there will be no misaligned tracks to compete with your fresh tracks.

This is also a mean to generate unformatted/weak bits area : erase the entire disk with the magnet and only write the parts with data. The untouched areas will generate noise. (drive AGC going to its maximum gain...).
Jeff_HxC2001 is offline  
Old 18 November 2019, 11:51   #60
lesta_smsc
Registered User

lesta_smsc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,974
Like bamcopy on X-COPY
lesta_smsc is offline  
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
soldering flux ItsTheSmell support.Hardware 7 01 October 2019 13:35
Dr. Plummet's House of Flux Graham Humphrey Games images which need to be WHDified 1 11 March 2013 05:04
Dr. Plummet`s House of flux stainy HOL data problems 2 07 July 2011 17:57
Coyote Flux: PPC680x0 to become freeware! Paul News 1 30 November 2004 21:20
Dr. Plummet's House Of Flux :( osama request.Old Rare Games 3 29 December 2001 04:22

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:30.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Page generated in 0.11127 seconds with 15 queries