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Old 05 November 2019, 17:15   #61
Gorf
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Originally Posted by meynaf View Post
Your replies were just choosing some lib that remotely looks as if it could do the work...
So i had to be a little more specific.
If we decide to really start the code contest, the rules should be as clear as possible, but why should they be fully specified now as it's likely that nothing will be done ?
your questions or tasks tend to be non fitting for a scripting language.
It makes little to no sense to use Python directly for such things, or only to write appropriate bindings or modules as part of a system integration.

Quote:
This thread is "python on amiga", not "python at work".
That is true. My argument is still valid here, since code-reuse and manageability by others are platform independent virtues.

Quote:
No, because it is the thread's topic.
Python coding has to do with Amiga coding, since you can code in Python on a Amiga...


Quote:
I wrote "iff image", which was assumed to mean ilbm.

I'd really like to see actual code doing that.

But the situation isn't different with asm (on which it's very easy for me to load and show an iff file due to my existing loading routine), maybe 'xcept on one point : Amiga asm isn't a moving target. It will hardly ever change.
So maybe writing a routine for some task may take longer (NOT for that one, though).
But it will also last longer. A routine for life, instead of a routine that will have compatibility problems when next major version of the language comes out.
What happened to python 2.x programs already when 3.x came out ?
I made the point myself earlier and was admitting that keeping up with the development of such languages is problematic.
Since Python introduces some incompatibilities as it moved from 2.x to 3.x this is an even bigger problem, so some programs need to be adjusted or need a 2.x interpreter to run. It took some years, but 3.x is now widely accepted und the vast majority of applications use it.
That is the reason, why a newer version for the Amiga would be nice.

Your 68k assembler will also not work on a newer machines, or you have to provide an emulator to do so.

Quote:
So now i must be doing YOUR work ? Remember, it's YOU who said this lib would do the job !
For me it's a lot easier to use some asm replay routine...
To which a Python module could point.
Handling such low-level stuff is surely not the stronghold of a scripting language, and you would resort to C or assembler to provide libraries or modules doing this.


Quote:
It's indeed closer. And now, by having seen it, it looks simpler to actually do that in asm.
but that asm code will not run on anything else, the Python code will.

Quote:
I'm not aiming at something specific.
ok...

Quote:
The target wasn't supposed to be clearly defined to start with...
It was just raw idea, and then instead of simply choosing one you throw library names.
because that is exactly what you would do in a scripting language like Python: use modules and libraries, that provide the functionality you need.


Quote:
And again, it wasn't supposed to be fully defined either. I just had to be more specific to prevent you from just throwing in some existing function.
why?

Quote:
Anyway, this was just what my actual asm routine provides...
fine. again something you can reuse in a higher level scripting language through a module or library.

Quote:
It was about saying that while both tools are inappropriate for the task, one is less inappropriate than the other.
was it?

Quote:
And now criticizing is forbidden so i should just stop ?
you agreeing with Bruce that Cython is "shit piled on shit" does not qualify as constructive criticism.


Quote:
Since when being better than the worse means being good ?
you stated that 99% of all languages may be "shit".
You also admitted to have failed, to come up with something better by yourself.
No shame here: it would have been great, if you had and maybe I would love to use it, if you did...

But since we can not apply moral criteria to programming languages, it is not possible to judge them to be absolutely good or bad in that sense. "Good" is here a relative statement and applies to languages that are better than others.

Quote:
Every language has its warts.
But replacing arexx by python or lua isn't very clever for the simple reason they don't have built-in port to send commands to other programs.

Why replacing?
No one suggested that.

Accommodating and juxtaposing would be the way to go.

The OS4 way of adjusting Python to make use of Arexx-ports is a reasonable way - MorphOS did the same for Lua

"Lupa" gives you a bridge between Lua and Python.

Quote:
Arexx also does not have big runtime.
Anyway, the point was - once again - it is here all about python on amiga, not python on windows or at work.
And (some) Amiga users would benefit from a newer version ...

Last edited by Gorf; 05 November 2019 at 17:26.
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Old 05 November 2019, 17:19   #62
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Originally Posted by meynaf View Post

But it's rather the other way around. If YOU like it, then it must be good for everyone ?
And now if i just emit some small criticism, i get charged of emitting crap in return...
My point was just to say python isn't any better than the others.
Please, for the benefit of those who don't have your insight, show me where I say ANYTHING about liking Python or it being good for everyone? As far as I can tell, you just took a HUGE leap from reality to the realms of fantasy in order to defend your comments. You like to move the goalposts whenever someone homes in on your rants.

And as far as emitting "some small criticism", you don't seem to understand the meaning of the word SMALL. What you actually do is shout out clearly and loudly, with all the subtlety of an exploding hand grenade, with the sole intention of deriding anything and everything YOU don't like. That behaviour is generally called "Trolling".

You refer to doing things in ASM being easier and better than a modern high level language... without even paying lip service to the fact that asm is harder to learn, less portable and requires detailed knowledge of the system in question. Talk about using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. I think you're on a different planet. Planet Troll
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Old 05 November 2019, 17:55   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meynaf View Post
I especially like the "no matter how wrong it is".
So, what is your complaint now?


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Originally Posted by meynaf View Post
Wait a minute. Isn't this called "argumentum ad populum" ?
No, not at all. There is that thing called facts, something you clearly have issues with. Something worth exploring??


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Originally Posted by meynaf View Post
My response clearly wasn't "Python is shit".
However, yours was "Holly shit, how did we miss this ridiculous statement..."
Yes, ridiculous statement about language that is still used and developed on machine that is not produced for over 25 years now.

Consider this my last post to you, as probably best thing is not to feed troll...
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Old 05 November 2019, 18:12   #64
meynaf
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Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
your questions or tasks tend to be non fitting for a scripting language.
It makes little to no sense to use Python directly for such things, or only to write appropriate bindings or modules as part of a system integration.
Yes and this is my point : for many things it's not suited.
I don't like languages that are ill-suited for half the things i need to do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
That is true. My argument is still valid here, since code-reuse and manageability by others are platform independent virtues.
Code re-use is also quite language independent, while manageability by others is rather theoretical - i still have to see code of a significant size that is really manageable.


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Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
Python coding has to do with Amiga coding, since you can code in Python on a Amiga...
Python coding by itself, yes. I didn't say otherwise.


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Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
I made the point myself earlier and was admitting that keeping up with the development of such languages is problematic.
Since Python introduces some incompatibilities as it moved from 2.x to 3.x this is an even bigger problem, so some programs need to be adjusted or need a 2.x interpreter to run. It took some years, but 3.x is now widely accepted und the vast majority of applications use it.
That is the reason, why a newer version for the Amiga would be nice.
I'm afraid that 4.x will be out before 3.x comes on the miggy...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
Your 68k assembler will also not work on a newer machines, or you have to provide an emulator to do so.
That's not the same thing. My 68k assembler would work on future 68k if there had been any. I don't think it will suddenly be declared obsolete because a new version comes out.


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Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
To which a Python module could point.
Handling such low-level stuff is surely not the stronghold of a scripting language, and you would resort to C or assembler to provide libraries or modules doing this.
So what are the language qualities if it keeps on using others ?


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Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
but that asm code will not run on anything else, the Python code will.
Well, python requires some runtime pretty much like asm code requires some vm. The situation seems quite even.


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Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
because that is exactly what you would do in a scripting language like Python: use modules and libraries, that provide the functionality you need.
But this says nothing about the language itself. Many others can do exactly the same.


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Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
why?
Because i wanted to see the code implementing the function itself, not merely using it.


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Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
fine. again something you can reuse in a higher level scripting language through a module or library.
But then we have nothing to compare.


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Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
was it?
My point was.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
you agreeing with Bruce that Cython is "shit piled on shit" does not qualify as constructive criticism.
You can't interpret a smiley when you see one, can you ?


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Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
you stated that 99% of all languages may be "shit".
With another smiley.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
You also admitted to have failed, to come up with something better by yourself.
No shame here: it would have been great, if you had and maybe I would love to use it, if you did...

But since we can not apply moral criteria to programming languages, it is not possible to judge them to be absolutely good or bad in that sense. "Good" is here a relative statement and applies to languages that are better than others.
It's true that comparison is meaningless if we don't first agree on which fields we do it...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
Why replacing?
No one suggested that.

Accommodating and juxtaposing would be the way to go.

The OS4 way of adjusting Python to make use of Arexx-ports is a reasonable why - MorphOS did the same for Lua

"Lupa" gives you bridge between Lua and Python.
Then why comparing python or lua with arexx ?
If we compare languages, it is to make choice. Else it is pointless.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
And (some) Amiga users would benefit from a newer version ...
Sure thing. But who will make it ? It's a lot of work.



Quote:
Originally Posted by IanS View Post
Please, for the benefit of those who don't have your insight, show me where I say ANYTHING about liking Python or it being good for everyone?
As you started insulting someone who doesn't agree with that (= myself), i assumed this was your point of view. Wrong assumption maybe ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by IanS View Post
As far as I can tell, you just took a HUGE leap from reality to the realms of fantasy in order to defend your comments. You like to move the goalposts whenever someone homes in on your rants.

And as far as emitting "some small criticism", you don't seem to understand the meaning of the word SMALL. What you actually do is shout out clearly and loudly, with all the subtlety of an exploding hand grenade, with the sole intention of deriding anything and everything YOU don't like. That behaviour is generally called "Trolling".

You refer to doing things in ASM being easier and better than a modern high level language... without even paying lip service to the fact that asm is harder to learn, less portable and requires detailed knowledge of the system in question. Talk about using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. I think you're on a different planet. Planet Troll
The behaviour that is called "trolling" is rather to attack people rather than what they write, or defending a point of view that is not actually yours, just to spite.


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Originally Posted by Anubis View Post
So, what is your complaint now?
My complaint is that i just write a few lines with smileys (see post #20) and get attacks in return.


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Originally Posted by Anubis View Post
No, not at all. There is that thing called facts, something you clearly have issues with. Something worth exploring??
Oh, yes it is. A very typical example, actually.
The fact something is used says nothing about its qualities, and this has already been written in that thread long before i even came in.


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Originally Posted by Anubis View Post
Yes, ridiculous statement about language that is still used and developed on machine that is not produced for over 25 years now.
Have you considered writing it's wrong (and the reasons why it is) rather than writing it's ridiculous ?


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Originally Posted by Anubis View Post
Consider this my last post to you, as probably best thing is not to feed troll...
I'm not giving you enough food and so you leave ?
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Old 05 November 2019, 19:33   #65
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Quote:
Then why comparing python or lua with arexx ?
If we compare languages, it is to make choice. Else it is pointless.
No.
If is about choosing the right tool for the task.
You can use a sledge-hammer to drive a screw into a wall, also a scalpel might not be the tool to fell a tree... ... but there are better ways.

It is a choice the user makes - and different users will make different choices.
To have the freedom to do is considered a good thing.

Quote:
Sure thing. But who will make it ? It's a lot of work.
Maybe grelbfarlk?

Last edited by Gorf; 05 November 2019 at 21:54.
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Old 05 November 2019, 19:55   #66
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Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
No.
If is about choosing the right tool for the task.
You can use a sledge-hammer to drive a screw into a wall, also a scalpel might not be the tool way to fell a tree... ... but there are better ways.
Also a scalpel might not be the tool way to fell a tree...

It is a choice the user makes - and different users will make different choices.
To have the freedom to do is considered a good thing.
Nobody will say the sledge-hammer or the scalpel suck or is a pile of shit. They're just tools targeted at a specific task. There is no choice here.
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Old 05 November 2019, 20:10   #67
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Originally Posted by meynaf View Post
Nobody will say the sledge-hammer or the scalpel suck or is a pile of shit.
The demolition man and the surgeon would, if you give then the wrong ones...

Quote:
They're just tools targeted at a specific task.
and so is Python ... yet someone called it shit

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There is no choice here.
there is always a choice...
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Old 05 November 2019, 20:20   #68
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Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
The demolition man and the surgeon would, if you give then the wrong ones...
Then perhaps it's the same thing for programming languages


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Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
and so is Python ... yet someone called it shit
Isn't it supposed to be general purpose, instead ?


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Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
there is always a choice...
Yeah, like choosing to use a tank to go shopping
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Old 05 November 2019, 20:31   #69
malko
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Originally Posted by Anubis View Post
[...] Python is used by many universities and organizations and is language of choice to teach kids about programming today. I also pointed to class by one of best technical research universities that is using Python and teaching introduction to programming by use of python.[...]
Here (CH) the only course I have seen for kids are with "scratch".


Out of curiosity: Did some of you have considered REBOL ? It exists for a huge amount of platform (maybe I should give a try to the Amiga version to see how it works).
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Old 05 November 2019, 21:10   #70
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Then perhaps it's the same thing for programming languages
of course it is
Quote:
Isn't it supposed to be general purpose, instead ?
Not to my knowledge. It is turing complete, but so is REXX.

The english Wikipedia actually calls it "general purpose", which is wrong in my opinion - german Wikipedia says "universell" - that is closer to turing complete than general purpose, which would be "universell einsetzbar".

python.org states:
Friendly & Easy to Learn
Python is a programming language that lets you work quickly and integrate systems more effectively.
Python can be easy to pick up whether you're a first time programmer or you're experienced with other languages.

that sums it up quite good.

Quote:
Yeah, like choosing to use a tank to go shopping
no more closed shops on Sunday...
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Old 05 November 2019, 21:24   #71
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Originally Posted by malko View Post
Here (CH) the only course I have seen for kids are with "scratch".


Out of curiosity: Did some of you have considered REBOL ? It exists for a huge amount of platform (maybe I should give a try to the Amiga version to see how it works).
REBOL is a different animal ... Carl missed the opportunity to make it widespread, by keeping it closed source for so long...

I think it can be a powerful language, but you need to be experienced with programming concepts to tap into that:

Quote:
Although it can be used for programming, writing functions, and performing processes, its greatest strength is the ability to easily create domain-specific languages or dialects
— Carl Sassenrath
from Wikipedia:
An example of Rebol's dialecting abilities can be seen with the word return. In the data exchange dialect return is just a word not having any specific meaning. In the do dialect, return is a global variable referring to a native function passing back a function result value. In the visual interface dialect (VID), return is a keyword causing the layout engine to simulate a carriage return, moving the "rendering pen" down to the beginning of the next line.

So it is meant to give you the tools to create your own task specific dialect ... something that is probably not the best way to guarantee interoperability and code reuse, but may make sense for custom tailored environments.

Last edited by Gorf; 05 November 2019 at 21:58.
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Old 05 November 2019, 21:55   #72
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Originally Posted by malko View Post
Here (CH) the only course I have seen for kids are with "scratch".


Out of curiosity: Did some of you have considered REBOL ? It exists for a huge amount of platform (maybe I should give a try to the Amiga version to see how it works).
Schools here use scratch for intro to programming, and python for later grades (4th grade and up). I believe it has to do with push toward STEM (Science Technology Engineering and Mathematics) to introduce kids to programming at an earlier age. In school where my wife works, they offer kids this book if they interested in learning programming.

I think that the same with scratch, ability to download free tools and start programming made it easier then getting into C#/C++/VB where most of tools are from MS (or other big name companies), and it would seem like monopoly. Also scratch being visual and python quite simple, makes it easier to learn for kids.

Never heard about REBOL.
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Old 05 November 2019, 22:18   #73
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Never heard about REBOL.
Since it is Carl Sassenrath's* brainchild REBOL got good coverage in Amiga Magazines and many in the Amiga community were interested, but it was closed source from 1992-2012 and ports to Amiga came late ...

I just now struggled to find any REBOL for Amiga ... there is an "RebolLib" on Aminet ... not sure which version it supports...

There was once a download option for R3 on the official REBOl page, but it has vanished now..

Solie announced REBOL for OS4 10 years ago - don't know what happened...

*)
Carl Sassenrath is one of the fathers of Amiga and wrote Exec as well as the book ARKRM: Exec
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Old 05 November 2019, 22:40   #74
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Here is what Nick Antonaccio (an expert) says about REBOL :
Quote:
REBOL is the easiest computer programming language to learn.

Beginners can build practical applications with it in just a few hours.

Experienced professional coders can use it to become immediately productive in ways that aren't possible using other commercial development tools.

Children can even learn REBOL, more easily than BASIC and other "educational" tools, without disappointing technical ceilings that limit creative ability.

REBOL is a tiny (1/2 megabyte) interpreter that uses "Domain Specific Language" (DSL) technology and a combination of other truly unique syntax and design strategies to make simple work of every imaginable coding task. Compare this tutorial to texts about any other programming language, and you'll quickly discover that REBOL is a remarkably concise and practical tool, regardless of your skill level. For immediately productive development, there is nothing else like REBOL, anywhere.[...]
source : https://easiestprogramminglanguage.c..._language.html

Regarding the download, you can get it here :
REBOL core 68k : http://rebol.com/platforms-core.html
REBOL view 68k : http://rebol.com/platforms-view.html

R3 is still Alpha Test but an OS4 PPC is here : http://www.rebol.com/r3/downloads.html
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Old 05 November 2019, 23:47   #75
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Thanks, I somehow couldn't find these links on the page ....


Sadly there seems to be no port of R3 except the alpha for OS4.
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Old 06 November 2019, 12:37   #76
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REBOL is a different animal ... Carl missed the opportunity to make it widespread, by keeping it closed source for so long... [...]
I am mixed with this statement.
It's true that at the beginning of the "opening" there was a lot of discussions/activity around r3 (REBOL v3). But since 2012, I don't see any major evolution of the language. Thus I preferred the time when it was closed source as Carl was making it evolving on a regular basis (between small breaks ). Last year Carl announced that Rebol/Command would be available for free (I didn't see it happen - maybe I missed the link ?) .

As far as I am aware, r3 is still "core" only and is missing the "view" side. That's true that the "core" is enough for a lot of things, but for me it's the main reason I still prefer to use the latest v2 (I am far from being an expert - just a Sunday coder and thus v2 is enough ) .

In this regard of "seems to be frozen" r3, I think that the "red programming language" is maybe a better step forward, not to mention that Carl himself is, since last year, an honorary member of the Red Foundation.

Let's see...
But enough for OT. It's a python thread

Edit: Found this picture interesting and forgot to add it...
It's missing REXX (mentioned in this thread) but has ASM, Python & REBOL

source: see above link

Last edited by malko; 06 November 2019 at 13:55.
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Old 06 November 2019, 12:44   #77
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I am mixed with this statement.
It's true that at the beginning of the "opening" there was a lot of discussions/activity around r3 (REBOL v3). But since 2012, I don't see any major evolution of the language. Thus I preferred the time when it was closed source as Carl was making it evolving on a regular basis (between small breaks ).
it was too late.
Like so many other software and programs the step to open source was made, after the closed source approach did not pay off and the project was almost dead...

Python is about the same age as REBOL but Guido van Rossum took advantage of the Linux and open source hype in the 90s and now Python is HUGE.

Quote:
As far as I am aware, r3 is still "core" only and is missing the "view" side. That's true that the "core" is enough for a lot of things, but for me it's the main reason I still prefer to use the latest v2 (I am far from being an expert - just a Sunday coder and thus v2 is enough ) .

In this regard of "seems to be frozen" r3, I think that the "red programming language" is maybe a better step forward, not to mention that Carl himself is, since last year, an honorary member of the Red Foundation.

Let's see...
But enough for OT. It's a python thread
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Old 07 November 2019, 01:40   #78
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meynaf: "As you started insulting someone who doesn't agree with that (= myself), i assumed this was your point of view. Wrong assumption maybe ?"

Insulting? Where? Wrong assumptions? Oh yes, you seem to make lots of them.

As for your definition of trolling, you seem to fit it quite well. You're contrary and argumentative for the sake of it. I'm certainly not the first to notice it. Perhaps a good long look in the mirror would do you some good.
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Old 07 November 2019, 04:56   #79
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@ Ian

Please step back a little and look at things calmly.
meynaf's approach to discussions is sometimes provocative (or seems to be), but is actually not trolling, but well... discussing.

There is no need to agree or come to a final conclusion in an open discussion, but meynaf will always consider valid points and will always answer on the subject.
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Old 07 November 2019, 05:27   #80
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It seems to me, that there are two ways of looking at Python on Amiga. And yes exactly two and no more.
1) Python is an inefficient scripting language because if it was ported it would either have slow posixivitiy (because ixemul badness maybe) or it would take too long to port into 68k assembly. Also there are other really better great scripting languages on the Amiga which are faster, more native or whatever, so use them instead.
2) Python is another prerequisite for compiling some other application you want to build that probably is multiplatform anyway and those other platforms assume you have Python availability. -This was the reason I tried to build it for WarpOS(and failed to make it a general use Python solution) and it sort of worked for that purpose.-
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