AROS in day-to-day use - can you use it as an Amiga NG system?

[Gorf]

@ tero

Yes, I know all that....

I was just proposing a better way. Most linux users will just use whats in the repo or what you can add to the repo.

And i doubt any distro will ever include it.

Than you just have to add my-new-aros-repo to the list of repositories! Everyone can add a ppa!

And after that:
sudo add-apt-repository ppa:my-new-aros-repo/latest

[tero]

Originally Posted by Gorf

Yes, I know all that....

I thought so. But for others reading this thread it may be useful

I was just proposing a better way. Most linux users will just use whats in the repo or what you can add to the repo.

Well, sadly most stuff in the repos is outdated (on most distros and especially ubuntu/debian). i search for newer versions first. But i guess i'm not your average user.

Linux newbies can use .appimage or flatpack if they want new stuff the easy way.


On the other hand: searching the web or reading a pdf before installing something is something people do in windows too. From my pov that should be enough. Aros need more people doing e.g. install videos like the countless vids for other systems. yt is a quick place to find tutorials.



nb: PPAs only works on ubuntu based distros.

[Gorf]

most distributions have a way to add additional package sources.

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Custom_repository

https://wiki.alpinelinux.org/wiki/En...ity_Repository

https://access.redhat.com/documentat...m_repositories

[tero]

They are nothing like ppa where people can easily setup single packages.
But an aros ppa is a nice thing to have for the lazy user

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by tero

Linux newbies can use .appimage or flatpack if they want new stuff the easy way.

true - AppImage might be a very good solution indeed.

[AMIGASYSTEM]

For AROS newbies it must also be said that AROS with Linux has nothing in common and that the best solution is to install AROS in a native way which is easier than one can imagine

[MartinW]

Originally Posted by AMIGASYSTEM

the best solution is to install AROS in a native way which is easier than one can imagine

Hang on - we're going round in circles here. The previous two pages go into detail about just how difficult Aros is to install on bare hardware for most people. There are a few people that seem to find it trivial but most struggle.

I'm genuinely beginning to come round to the fact that OS4 is probably the easiest way to NG Amiga, but of course the most expensive. Sad to say, I can't see NG Amiga getting anywhere. I'm sure that's probably been said to death already however.

So to change direction slightly, let's hypothetically say that I got the latest Aros installed on bare metal and working well. So we know that it needs developers, but what kind / level of developer? I was watching one of Stephen Jone's videos and I'm sure he said that he was a developer in print / document management and as such not really much help when it comes to Aros dev (apologies if I remember that wrong).

I ask because I've done exactly the same development for the last 25+ years. Does Aros use C/C++ in a fairly similar API set to Amiga 3.9? In other words, is developing for Aros somewhat like developing C circa late 1990's? If so, I wouldn't be much use either. Yes, I can (and have) developed that stuff before but it does my head in and is no fun. What I would call higher level stuff like (purely as an example) .NET or Java then things might be different. And of course I have virtually no experience with low level driver development aside from a bit of embedded assembler in the past.

Sorry, that's probably getting off topic but just trying to understand what would be required of someone in order for them to make any kind of meaningful contribution to Aros.

[AMIGASYSTEM]

Originally Posted by MartinW

Hang on - we're going round in circles here. The previous two pages go into detail about just how difficult Aros is to install on bare hardware for most people. There are a few people that seem to find it trivial but most struggle.

We are talking a lot about a difficulty that does not exist especially for an Amiga user, to install AROS it's very easy, just start the live CD/DVD and run InstallAROS, these are the rules:

- Know your name device
- Know number of units
- The hard disk or partition must be RAW (no MBR or other bootloader)

- A Hardisk can be installed on virtual machine and then mount it on PC, it can also be installed on external HD or Pendrive (portable)

AROS it can also be installed in Dual Boot (for more experts), to do this after installing Windows (I also believe Linux, never tried), just create a partition RAW (where you want, second, third etc ..). AROS install it in that partition and create the dual-boot automatically in his GRUB cwhich is not a linux GRUB, ipropose video tutorials

VMware : Install AROS USB External Hard Disk:
[ Show youtube player ]

VMware Player Installazione IcarOS 2.0 on Pendrive
[ Show youtube player ]

[AdvanceFollow]

I've installed Icaros many times in a VM. It's very easy. The problems start when you try to install it on physical hardware and discover various bits and pieces are unsupported, such as the SATA so the OS won't even boot, or no sound, 3D acceleration, network etc.

Also tried it hosted on Linux, but this required 32-bit Linux IIRC. It was easy enough to install on Linux Mint. Not sure about things like sound or 3D acceleration though, didn't play around much with it.

There was also a project to get hosted Aros running on devices like the Pi, XU4 etc. but that looks abandoned.

Originally Posted by MartinW

I'm genuinely beginning to come round to the fact that OS4 is probably the easiest way to NG Amiga, but of course the most expensive. Sad to say, I can't see NG Amiga getting anywhere. I'm sure that's probably been said to death already however.

Of course, this is one of the big advantages of proprietary hardware. Since everything is made to work together, getting it installed and running is much easier. Very few users are willing to spend $2000+ on a system, though.

[MartinW]

Originally Posted by AdvanceFollow

The problems start when you try to install it on physical hardware and discover various bits and pieces are unsupported, such as the SATA so the OS won't even boot, or no sound, 3D acceleration, network etc.

This, basically is it in a nutshell. I've tried all the machines I have around here and I can't even get it to recognise the disks.

For me personally (and I realise this is just my opinion) it has to be real hardware or nothing. If I'm running in a VM then I may as well run OS4 in an emulator. It works quite well. If I'm booting into Linux first then running another layer on top (so called Linux Hosted) then I may as well run OS 4 in an emulator because rightly or wrongly that's what it feels like I'm doing for Aros.

So, a bit pointless posting more here because the more I say it doesn't work for me (fact), the more I'm just going to be told it's easy and have video links thrown at me.

If someone cares to go into the other topics I raised on development I'd like to here that. And if someone can come up with a shopping list of compatible parts that I can buy NEW today (not years old stuff off of eBay) then I'm all ears. Believe it or not, despite what it might sound like, I AM interested.

But then we do get into the "what will I use it for?!" question. I have a G4 Mac mini and I've been down the Morphos route several times but never actually bought it because I didn't really have a use for it.

[AMIGASYSTEM]

Originally Posted by MartinW

This, basically is it in a nutshell. I've tried all the machines I have around here and I can't even get it to recognise the disks.
.

This is very strange, if you talk about compatibility Video Card or Network Card then you may encounter an incompatible PC, but with regards to HardDisks, it's much harder for them to show up, i have tested dozens and dozens of PCs and only rarely does this happen. As said to install AROS the hard disk must be RAW and must not have any stored bootloader, for HD SATA from Bios when it is possible to set up the IDE mode or AHCI mode. Then as mentioned several times you can also install AROS on an external HD (Box USB) and start AROS on any PC.

[Sinphaltimus]

Originally Posted by AMIGASYSTEM

This is very strange, if you talk about compatibility Video Card or Network Card then you may encounter an incompatible PC, but with regards to HardDisks, it's much harder for them to show up, i have tested dozens and dozens of PCs and only rarely does this happen. As said to install AROS the hard disk must be RAW and must not have any stored bootloader, for HD SATA from Bios when it is possible to set up the IDE mode or AHCI mode. Then as mentioned several times you can also install AROS on an external HD (Box USB) and start AROS on any PC.

I agree with this. I have never ran into SATA issues. i can say that I set the bios to legacy (If a choice is there for legacy/uefi) and I do the same for the sata controller (set to IDE/legacy mode not AHCI). It's very rare I cannot install Icaros and have it working (network, sata, sound, video) - I can just never get 68k integration to work. But I've said that enough.

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by Sinphaltimus

I can just never get 68k integration to work. But I've said that enough.

True - tested Icaros 2.2.1 yesterday and today: just getting a grey screen when I try 68k

and I did not get sound to work ... would not be that important, but every program that tries to make a sound will hang. No warning ...

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by MartinW

For me personally (and I realise this is just my opinion) it has to be real hardware or nothing. If I'm running in a VM then I may as well run OS4 in an emulator. It works quite well. If I'm booting into Linux first then running another layer on top (so called Linux Hosted) then I may as well run OS 4 in an emulator because rightly or wrongly that's what it feels like I'm doing for Aros.

Yes, that is the problem: AROS should be flying in x86. It should be dramatically faster than any PPC or 68K emulation...
But it does not.

Tried now latest Icaros and Aspireos ... will not run native on my macbook and VM feels sloooowww.
Every Linux or even Windows runs just fine in a VM under macOS.
Aros has sluggish mouse (tats sometimes even wanders off), moving windows is a slideshow ...

And the preconfigured "themes", colors, decorations, fonts and settings on Icaros are a disaster, a visual crime, just terrible or even unusable.

Seems the next version of Icaros is for now one available for "supporters and patrons" ... who is getting this money? the AROS devs or the person responsible for this visual disaster?

[AMIGASYSTEM]

Originally Posted by Gorf

Every Linux or even Windows runs just fine in a VM under macOS.
Aros has sluggish mouse (tats sometimes even wanders off), moving windows is a slideshow ...

This does not happen on a virtual machine on Windows (these are Linux and MacOS problems), AROS it's very fast on VM, mouse moves perfectly, the audio is perfect, see video attachments (used an old Dual-Core PC)

And the preconfigured "themes", colors, decorations, fonts and settings on Icaros are a disaster, a visual crime, just terrible or even unusable.

Strange my "themes" they are perfect on virtual machine, on real PC with compatible graphics card the colors are more than perfect

Seems the next version of Icaros is for now one available for "supporters and patrons" ... who is getting this money? the AROS devs or the person responsible for this visual disaster?

You are not informed, read HERE Paolone author of IcarOS has already answered this

VMware Player : AROS Play Game (Audio works perfectly)
[ Show youtube player ]

VMware Player: OWB Player
[ Show youtube player ]

VMware Player: AROS Configuration Network LAN & WiFi
[ Show youtube player ]

VMware Player: AROS Quake and Quake2 Render Software
[ Show youtube player ]

All this costs only 0 Euro, this should be enough not to downgrade or speak badly about what you do not know.

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by AMIGASYSTEM

This does not happen on a virtual machine on Windows (these are Linux and MacOS problems), AROS it's very fast on VM, mouse moves perfectly, the audio is perfect, see video attachments (used an old Dual-Core PC)

Good for you.
does not work for me.
So i need to use Windows to use Aros? No, Sir!

Strange my "themes" they are perfect on virtual machine, on real PC with compatible graphics card the colors are more than perfect

They are just terrible and absolutely unusable
(that has nothing to do with VM or gfx-card)

You are not informed, read HERE Paolone author of IcarOS has already answered this

Ok, so no money for the real devs
not good.

[B]VMware Player : AROS Play Game (Audio works perfectly)

I just told you it is not working in my case.
Many others may have the same problem.
It is not helping if you still insist it would work perfectly. It does not!

All this costs only 0 Euro, this should be enough not to downgrade or speak badly about what you do not know.

This thread is about, if AROS is fit for day-to-day use.
It is clearly not!
I took my time and testet the latest versions - my verdict:
not suitable for real use.

Some big things missing and very many little things missing/flawed/unfinished and unstable. Sorry but that is true.

It does not matter it it costs 0€ or 100€ - the result is the same.

I would love to see Aros in a better state and hope they find more developers and contributors!

I understand that you want to support AROS by promoting it, but you don't help AROS by hiding it's flaws.
You are saying it is all good and everything is working, while it is clearly not.
You will just get a lot of people disappointed...

[AMIGASYSTEM]

Originally Posted by Gorf

Good for you.
does not work for me.
So i need to use Windows to use Aros? No, Sir!

Ok, but do not to blame AROS, you blame it on Linux and MAC OS, on VM Windows the audio is perfect as it is on native AROS when the card Audio is supported

[Gorf]

Strange my "themes" they are perfect on virtual machine, on real PC with compatible graphics card the colors are more than perfect

I mean ... REALLY??



black text on dark gray.
grey icons on grey background
combining a "flat" window-theme with perspective icons
empty grey area in the top-right corner
all different fonts
"flat" theme with lot of space vs. icon bar totally cramped
...


(I know, you can change all this - I am complaining about the default, because this is how it looks if you make a fresh install!)


I am here in the Grub directory - why?
Because this is the only way to change the resolution of the screen. By editing the config file.
There is a "screen modes" in Prefs, but it is totally useless - you can only choose the one single mode you booted with...

But to get this running under vbox, editing grub is not enough if you want a 16:9 resolution ... only 4:3 are working with Aros on vbox per default.
You have to define a new custom screenmode for vbox via command line on your host with the same resolution you are going to tell grub.....

It is a dream!

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by AMIGASYSTEM

Ok, but do not to blame AROS, you blame it on Linux and MAC OS, on VM Windows the audio is perfect as it is on native AROS when the card Audio is supported

No I blame it on the actual operating system and not on the host. The host is working fine. And any other OS is working fine under emulation.

AROS, does not support my hardware native and it does not support the most important free VM.

If I need Windows to run an other operating system, than something went terribly wrong, wouldn't you think?

[AMIGASYSTEM]

As mentioned AROS it does not need any OS, the best choice is AROS Nativo. AROS has an AMiGA structure and everything can be configured, those gray icons is a choice of its author, I for example i configure differently, I do not use Dopu5, see screenshot. I forgot ... the beautiful AROS graphics are also featured on my OS 3.9 where the touch of AROS makes it modern, see screenshots.