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Old 21 September 2017, 03:39   #1
alewis
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Amiga networking under winuae

Anyone got a simple guide to networkimg an A4000 under winuae?

Unsure if I need to add an emulated card (and if so, which one), or if just using the virtual bsdsocket library would work.

I presume i need a stack (AmiTCP or MiamiDX) if I emulate a card, but what about if I use bsdsocket? If not, then how does a web browser talk to the device, and how do I use ping, ftp, etc?
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Old 21 September 2017, 04:12   #2
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I cannot remember exactly, but you only need to enable bdsocket.library,
but you have to install winpcap. no need for a tcp/ip stack.
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Old 21 September 2017, 05:50   #3
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Use bsdsocket.library and if you want to use ping, tracert etc... just make a AmiTCP: assign somewhere and MiamiDX ping, tracert should work. I dunno... it's been an long time since I used MiamiDX so don't quote me. There should be other programs out there on AmiNET that should work as well.

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Old 21 September 2017, 14:18   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emufan View Post
I cannot remember exactly, but you only need to enable bdsocket.library,
but you have to install winpcap. no need for a tcp/ip stack.
No need to install winpcap to use the bsdsocket.library emulation in uae - it wraps calls to bsdsocket.library functions to corresponding functions in the host OS TCP/IP-stack.

So from a networking perspective, it is like the Amiga program in uae is run on the host OS.
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Old 21 September 2017, 21:23   #5
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No need to install winpcap
maybe it was mandatory on earlier versions, I cannot remember. thnx for info.
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Old 22 September 2017, 09:02   #6
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Originally Posted by emufan View Post
maybe it was mandatory on earlier versions, I cannot remember. thnx for info.
I think [win]pcap is mandatory only if you emulate a networkcard (to have a different MAC-Address, f.e,).
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Old 22 September 2017, 17:41   #7
Toni Wilen
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bsdsocket has never needed any extra. uaenet and hardware emulated boards need winpcap for full compatibility (everything works), slirp is optional but it can only support most common TCP and UDP protocols.
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Old 01 October 2017, 22:56   #8
alewis
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Um, ok, so going back to the orginal question, is there a step by step guide anywhere? Enabled bsdsocket.library, installed MUI3.8, installed MiamiDX... and its asking me for the device and unit number. Tried leaving it blank, nope, no worky-worky.

It tries to contact Rarp server (no use, there isnt one on my LAN), detects the /24 subnet mask, but for some reason thinks the IP address is 10.0.0.2 - assuming it uses DHCP, it should pickup a 192.168.1.x address... I'm doing something wrong, or missing somethign vital...
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Old 02 October 2017, 20:00   #9
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If you enable bsdsocket.library in WinUAE you don't need Miami.
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Old 03 October 2017, 15:28   #10
alewis
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Cheers, brilliant, thank-you... except

How does one configure IP address, subnet mask, default gateway, DNS?
Does a browser "just work" then? It needs an IP address.
AmigaOS has no tools such as ping, ftp, etc - so where do they come from?

Don't get me wrong, WinUAE is a superb piece of work - but it is crying out for documentation.. ie what is "bsdsocket.library", what is uaenet.device, What is the difference between MAC and Network mode, what is SLIRP, (and the two different options), when would you use one over the other, what requirements does each have. And that is just one example.
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Old 03 October 2017, 19:50   #11
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bsdsocket.library is the Amiga TCP/IP stack API. WinUAE provides an emulation so you don't need a 'real' stack on the Amiga side.

It should work fine for 90% of cases.

As for ping, traceroute etc you can try downloading AmiTCP from Aminet and extract these from the archive.
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Old 04 October 2017, 14:54   #12
alewis
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Cheers noggin :-)

But... what do I use for a device? (Both AmiTCP and Miami want a device to use... I'm not using uaenet.device, just bsdsocket.library)

I'm a networking guy. Most OS's have an IP stack inbuilt. Regardless, they still need a NIC (think network card) for physical access, and a network card needs a driver (an abstract layer between the stack and the hardware).

Nowdays, the black art of network configuration is hidden by the OS. But for anything old, it isn't. One had to install the hardware, install a driver, install a stack, and tell the stack which driver to use (so it could call it). That's just about how it worked on the Amiga.

So, do I also need to select an emulated network card? In which case, I presume I still need the driver for it ie, I could select an A2060/2065 for now, use the AmiTCP driver. Then later select x-surf 100 and install the driver for that?

Last edited by alewis; 04 October 2017 at 15:10.
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Old 04 October 2017, 18:04   #13
sigma63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alewis View Post
But... what do I use for a device? (Both AmiTCP and Miami want a device to use... I'm not using uaenet.device, just bsdsocket.library)

I'm a networking guy. Most OS's have an IP stack inbuilt. Regardless, they still need a NIC (think network card) for physical access, and a network card needs a driver (an abstract layer between the stack and the hardware).
Hello alewis,

it has been written so many times before: if you use bsdsocket.library, you don't need neither IP-Stack nor networkcard! bsdsocket.library "speaks" directly to the IP-Stack of your host, so all configuration has to be done there. The host "shares" his networkcard with WinUAE/AmigaOS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alewis View Post
Nowdays, the black art of network configuration is hidden by the OS. But for anything old, it isn't. One had to install the hardware, install a driver, install a stack, and tell the stack which driver to use (so it could call it). That's just about how it worked on the Amiga.
It isn't the OS hiding the details, it is DHCP from your router!

Quote:
Originally Posted by alewis View Post
So, do I also need to select an emulated network card? In which case, I presume I still need the driver for it ie, I could select an A2060/2065 for now, use the AmiTCP driver. Then later select x-surf 100 and install the driver for that?
Only if you need something special, for example a different MAC/IP-Address for your Amiga or a program depending on a certain networkcard.
Then (and only then) you have to "install" a networkcard (eg. A2065) with driver AND an IP-Stack (Miami, AmiTCP or Genesis) where you have to select and to configure that card, of course.

I hope this was clear enough for a "networking guy"
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Old 05 October 2017, 15:03   #14
alewis
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<sighs>

Then perhaps you can tell me why it DOESNT work!

Look, the root cause is a total lack of any documentation explaining which WinUAE option is required for a given scenario.

For example, do I want WinUAE to
use a form of NAT'ed addressing using the PC's NIC and IP?
shared addresses using a handful of ports using PC's NIC and IP
to have a virtual interface over the PC's NIC, with it's own unique MAC and IP address?

bsdsocket.library is enabled. I dont use DHCP, but enabled it. Still nothing. Port scan of the network and a full scan of PC IP address doesn't show the Amiga (or any extra listening ports)

A network scan does not show another device on my network. So I can deduce the Amiga does not have an IP address.

The Amiga has no in-built PING command. So extract that from AmiTCP. Nope, doesn't work.

Install AmiTCP. It wants to know the device to use, it will not accept "bsdsocket.library" as a device. Ping still doesn't work.

Install MiamiDeluxe. Ditto, it wants a device to use.

Go looking for a web browser to see if that would just "automgically work"... a whole new kettle of fish - Aminet has lots of add-ons, upgrades, patches, scripts for Ibrowse, Aweb, Amosiac, Voyager... but not the actual software, and so far every internet link is dead/404.

Gents, I do appreciate the replies, but surely its just easier to do a quick step by step configuration of YOUR winue config, your Amiga config (ie what s/w you installed, and what options you selected).

BTW, DHCP does not hide network configuration; DHCP doesn't do hardware interrupts, port addresses, driver installations, stack installs. The OS does that and has done pretty much since PCI PnP arrived. Go back to a Windows 3.1 era machine... the days of NE2000 cards, hardware settings, driveer installs, and Chameleon TCP/IP. Win 3.11wfg helped, but there was still a lot of manual effort required.
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Old 05 October 2017, 15:47   #15
sigma63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alewis View Post
A network scan does not show another device on my network. So I can deduce the Amiga does not have an IP address.
Wrong deduction. As i wrote, the virtual amiga and the host share the same network card if you use bsdsocket.library, hence the SAME IP!

Quote:
Originally Posted by alewis View Post
Port scan of the network and a full scan of PC IP address doesn't show the Amiga (or any extra listening ports)
How do you expect the amiga to reply to a portscan if you didn't start any daemon or service on the amiga?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alewis View Post
BTW, DHCP does not hide network configuration; DHCP doesn't do hardware interrupts, port addresses, driver installations, stack installs. The OS does that and has done pretty much since PCI PnP arrived. Go back to a Windows 3.1 era machine... the days of NE2000 cards, hardware settings, driveer installs, and Chameleon TCP/IP. Win 3.11wfg helped, but there was still a lot of manual effort required.
Then we have a different understanding of the term "network configuration". For me "network configuration" is only the part the "network" will see, the IP-Address! Interrupt, io-address and the like is "networkcard configuration".

BTW, why do you enable DHCP (where did you enable it?) if you don't use it on your network?

Last edited by sigma63; 05 October 2017 at 16:07.
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Old 05 October 2017, 16:04   #16
Toni Wilen
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I don't do documentation. I never do documentation. No one has ever volunteered. You are expected to know it and know what to do when using advanced features. (Funnily enough there would not have been any "problem" when only networking option was bsdsocket.library emulation...)

Just tick bsdsocket and install any normal socket based (TCP or UDP) networking software. It just works. Don't install NIC drivers, don't install TCP/IP stack. Only do if you know that you are 100% sure what are you doing!

Need raw sockets, raw ethernet frames, separate MAC address for Amiga, developing/debugging NIC drivers, using some weird programs that require some specific/ancient drivers/hardware, easier troubleshooting real hardware problems using emulation (EDIT: or if you want to match real hardware config = you already know needed software). etc.. -> uaenet.device or hardware emulation NIC + winpcap.
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Old 07 October 2017, 06:30   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alewis View Post
<sighs>

Install AmiTCP. It wants to know the device to use, it will not accept "bsdsocket.library" as a device. Ping still doesn't work.

Install MiamiDeluxe. Ditto, it wants a device to use.
Why do you insist on installing AmiTCP or Miami? These are not needed with bsdsocket emulation. The bsdsocket is already functioning it is connected to the host's socket.

Just start your favorite program, for example AmFTP, AmIRC etc. They just work, as long as the host has internet access. All network config is done on your host PC.

Maybe I am misunderstanding you, but how is this hard to understand? It is the simplest networking emulation I have ever experienced. You click one checkmark in WinUAE Settings, and all the network programs on the emulated Amiga just work.

For ping etc., you only need the executables, not the full AmiTCP or Miami install.
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Old 09 October 2017, 04:35   #18
alewis
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So, started from scratch, clean OS3.1 install. bsdsocket.library emultion enabled.

extracted 'ping' and 'telnet' from amitcp3.2 archive to c:
ping 192.168.1.254 (local router)
ping: socket: Permission denied

telnet 192.168.1.254
Trying 192.168.1.254 ...
TCP: not mounted

However, Aweeb "just works".

Full reply tomorrow, cos its late (well, early! Just got in from work...) and I need sleep. And a Jack Daniels first
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Old 09 October 2017, 19:57   #19
Toni Wilen
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TCP: = need TCP handler from amitcp (don't install anything else, this is not standard bsdsocket feature).

Ping can't work in bsdsocket mode, Windows won't allow (since Vista?) raw sockets.
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Old 13 October 2017, 03:23   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alewis View Post
So, started from scratch, clean OS3.1 install. bsdsocket.library emultion enabled.

extracted 'ping' and 'telnet' from amitcp3.2 archive to c:
ping 192.168.1.254 (local router)
ping: socket: Permission denied

telnet 192.168.1.254
Trying 192.168.1.254 ...
TCP: not mounted

However, Aweeb "just works".

Full reply tomorrow, cos its late (well, early! Just got in from work...) and I need sleep. And a Jack Daniels first
Hiya,

I think you need something explained beyond the Technical stuff. AWeb worked because BSDSOCKET is/was enabled. That means you do not need MiamiDx or any other TCP Stack running (That's what Miami or MiamiDx are). You don't even need anything in the WinUAE Extensions/Network Adapters enabled. Because BSDSOCKET is handling everything that is Internet related Within the WinUAE program where AmigaOS is running as long as it (BSDSOCKET) is Enabled.

I suggest not reading this high from J.D. or Pot. It should make more sense then. Wink!
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