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Old 08 September 2017, 02:05   #161
DamienD
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...yup, and it's the same people everytime doing the derailing / totally off topic posts!!!

Seriously, if you want us GMs to start naming / shaming then we will!!!

You are being watched so if you're up to you usual antics; don't be surprised if you are suddenly banned without any further warning... and we are not talking 1 weeks "pussy footing around" bans; going forward anyone out of line will most definitely be receiving at least a 1 month ban if not permanent.

Again, zero tolerance is being enforced until you can get along nicely and stay on topic. Do we make ourselves clear???

...sooooo bored of this shite; trust me, I really do have better stuff to do with my time... As prowler said, absolute last warning to all; think before you post

Last edited by DamienD; 08 September 2017 at 02:10.
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Old 08 September 2017, 02:17   #162
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Thread cleansed of my blasphemy against the untouchable of purity. I know where I'm not welcome. I have better stuff to do with my time too. I left amiga.org and amigaworld.net because of censorship as well. Have a nice life.
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Old 08 September 2017, 03:07   #163
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I / we moderator are sooooo fed up and yes, you are one of the main cultprits!!!

Think you can do better than the Vampire team?!? Well, what's stopping you then?!?

Don't be wasting time flaming / trying to disprove them here; get to work and show us all that their plans / decisions are totally wrong!!! Action speaks louder than words!!!

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Thread cleansed of my blasphemy against the untouchable of purity. I know where I'm not welcome. I have better stuff to do with my time too. I left amiga.org and amigaworld.net because of censorship as well. Have a nice life.
Ok, see ya!!! On your bike then son; bye, bye!!!

In fact, I'll make your decision easier for you; you've now been permanently banned

Anyone else want to speak up or continue with this f$%king bullshite??? My finger is twitching!!!
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Old 08 September 2017, 06:03   #164
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Moving along:

As I'm genuinely interested in this discussion I'll try to get back on topic and expand some previous thoughts. So, my claim is that high end 68k machines in general have loads of untapped potencial in regards to game making, never before realised or explored:

While our community was busy trying for the 1000th time to make Quake run decently on 30 year old hardware and (us users) craved for 3d polygons and graphics with 16M colors from the late 90s (that seemed so much within the reach of high end machines), the rest of the pc indie world (as well as the other retro scenes) were re-discovering their roots: What's like to be a bedroom coder, how cool is pixel art, how fulfilling a simple game done by one person or a small team can be, if executed properly. All these -of course- are classic values from the hayday of game making in the 80s and 90s most Amigans can easily recognise and relate to.

However, the interesting thing here isn't how a bunch of people decided to copy/paste a proven concept and style but how the modern scene actually manages to push the medium forward. Let the following video explain a bit further: [ Show youtube player ]

So, back to the starting argument, in regards to high-end 68k machines, their real untapped potencial stands face to face with the modern indie games reality on other platforms.
To contemplate on that just wonder: What was the last time a real 2d pixel art game made any meaningful use of the extra horsepower or features of a 040 or 060 f.e.? Is there enough power to even consider doing a modern indie game for our classics?

And to the point: Isn't Vampire compatible, accessible or powerful enough for any 68k coder to make a game similar in features or performance to -say - super meat boy, shovel knight, limbo, hotline miami, braid or spelunky f.e.?
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Old 08 September 2017, 06:49   #165
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Moving along:

As I'm genuinely interested in this discussion I'll try to get back on topic and expand some previous thoughts. So, my claim is that high end 68k machines in general have loads of untapped potencial in regards to game making, never before realised or explored:

While our community was busy trying for the 1000th time to make Quake run decently on 30 year old hardware and (us users) craved for 3d polygons and graphics with 16M colors from the late 90s (that seemed so much within the reach of high end machines), the rest of the pc indie world (as well as the other retro scenes) were re-discovering their roots: What's like to be a bedroom coder, how cool is pixel art, how fulfilling a simple game done by one person or a small team can be, if executed properly. All these -of course- are classic values from the hayday of game making in the 80s and 90s most Amigans can easily recognise and relate to.

However, the interesting thing here isn't how a bunch of people decided to copy/paste a proven concept and style but how the modern scene actually manages to push the medium forward. Let the following video explain a bit further: [ Show youtube player ]

So, back to the starting argument, in regards to high-end 68k machines, their real untapped potencial stands face to face with the modern indie games reality on other platforms.
To contemplate on that just wonder: What was the last time a real 2d pixel art game made any meaningful use of the extra horsepower or features of a 040 or 060 f.e.? Is there enough power to even consider doing a modern indie game for our classics?

And to the point: Isn't Vampire compatible, accessible or powerful enough for any 68k coder to make a game similar in features or performance to -say - super meat boy, shovel knight, limbo, hotline miami, braid or spelunky f.e.?
I think one problem is that unless you are using an RTG card, the chip ram bandwidth only allows so much extra stuff. Obviously an 060 can do a hell of a lot more than a 68000, but my guess it is it's not going to be an order of magnitude better.

Using a fast RTG card opens lots of possibilities, but then limits the target audience.

Will be interesting to find out what's possible.
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Old 08 September 2017, 07:38   #166
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@alpine

Im just another enduser, so I might be wrong about pointing to this;

You say chip memory speed, and it seems like the copy speed is being targeted by the Apollo Team now;



Thread in question;

http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge...=8600&z=JYBU8B
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Old 08 September 2017, 07:56   #167
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@alpine

Im just another enduser, so I might be wrong about pointing to this;

You say chip memory speed, and it seems like the copy speed is being targeted by the Apollo Team now;



Thread in question;

http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge...=8600&z=JYBU8B
Well yeah, I guess the vampire re-implementation of an AGA chipset won't have the same limitations as a CPU card on an original chipset.
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Old 08 September 2017, 08:20   #168
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I think a lot of simple looking modern games actually use a surprisingly complex stack of software layers to make the coding easier. Such games may be possible on a high-end Amiga but require a completely different approach at coding like doing low-level coding. With a Vampire you have more processing power to spend on ease of programming and maintainability of your project but not nearly as much as with today's PC programming. I guess the highest we can go would be an AMMX-optimised SDL library. Some work has been done for that already which is promising. Such libraries render the "not easy to program" argue brought forward by some here moot because AMMX code can be restricted to such libraries (if you really don't want to use it yourself).
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Old 08 September 2017, 08:46   #169
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I think a lot of simple looking modern games actually use a surprisingly complex stack of software layers to make the coding easier. Such games may be possible on a high-end Amiga but require a completely different approach at coding like doing low-level coding. With a Vampire you have more processing power to spend on ease of programming and maintainability of your project but not nearly as much as with today's PC programming. I guess the highest we can go would be an AMMX-optimised SDL library. Some work has been done for that already which is promising. Such libraries render the "not easy to program" argue brought forward by some here moot because AMMX code can be restricted to such libraries (if you really don't want to use it yourself).
One thing that might help get people interested in vampire development would be if the apollo team (or someone else) would make a *-UAE compatible emulator.

The development/test cycle is just so painfully slow if you need to test on real hardware vs taking < 1 second to launch an emulator.
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Old 08 September 2017, 09:07   #170
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Toni Wilen said it's not going to happen, hence, it would have to be somebody else which is rather unlikely, too. I believe network shares can make testing quite convenient. Keep the source code on your PC, compile (vasm with AMMX support does not need AMMX to run) and then run on the networked Vampire-Amiga.
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Old 08 September 2017, 09:15   #171
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Toni Wilen said it's not going to happen, hence, it would have to be somebody else which is rather unlikely, too. I believe network shares can make testing quite convenient. Keep the source code on your PC, compile (vasm with AMMX support does not need AMMX to run) and then run on the networked Vampire-Amiga.
The main thing that is good about using an emulator for testing (apart from speed) is the full computer debugger. Especially if the target doesn't have an MMU and a bug in your code can take out the whole system.

I just assumed that adding emulation to one of the UAEs would be a walk in the park for the guys that created the vampire.
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Old 08 September 2017, 09:28   #172
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That is true. If you can do what you want to do with out AMMX you gain compatibility with high-end Amigas plus you can use UAE for debugging. If you put AMMX into a library of which there already are non-AMMX versions, you can still use UAE for debugging because it can easily keep up with the Vampire even with the non-AMMX variant.

As for a team member doing the necessary changes to UAE: some probably could do that but are working on other things that are considered more important and more urgent.
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Old 08 September 2017, 10:04   #173
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That is true. If you can do what you want to do with out AMMX you gain compatibility with high-end Amigas plus you can use UAE for debugging. If you put AMMX into a library of which there already are non-AMMX versions, you can still use UAE for debugging because it can easily keep up with the Vampire even with the non-AMMX variant.
I kinda like the idea of putting AMMX in a library - i'd say along the new register stuff. Then it does not need emulation, not even support from dev tools, remains private and can be left undocumented, not to mention it can be replaced with something better (like gpu or larger simd) in a totally transparent way without any legacy to be compatible with...
I could even write the non-AMMX version of said lib if asked to.
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Old 08 September 2017, 11:03   #174
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That is true. If you can do what you want to do with out AMMX you gain compatibility with high-end Amigas plus you can use UAE for debugging. If you put AMMX into a library of which there already are non-AMMX versions, you can still use UAE for debugging because it can easily keep up with the Vampire even with the non-AMMX variant.

As for a team member doing the necessary changes to UAE: some probably could do that but are working on other things that are considered more important and more urgent.
Having an SDL library would certainly be a good way of being able to port games or for some people, to write amiga games.

For me personally however that takes out all the fun, and I'd probably just write a game for a more popular platform if I was going to use a higher level framework.

If I had a bunch of high quality assets, I'd be more inclined to do an indie switch game than use SDL to do an Amiga game.

The appeal of Amiga dev for me is that you can be in 100% control of the hardware. Something that's not really possible on any other modern platform.
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Old 08 September 2017, 12:34   #175
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Originally Posted by alpine9000 View Post
Having an SDL library would certainly be a good way of being able to port games or for some people, to write amiga games.

For me personally however that takes out all the fun, and I'd probably just write a game for a more popular platform if I was going to use a higher level framework.

If I had a bunch of high quality assets, I'd be more inclined to do an indie switch game than use SDL to do an Amiga game.

The appeal of Amiga dev for me is that you can be in 100% control of the hardware. Something that's not really possible on any other modern platform.
Agreed. The proposed SAGA features are interesting if they happen. The idea is that you'll be able to use the copper to control chunky playfields alongside planar ones. That offers lots of possibilities for enhancing regular AGA or OCS/ECS games without haing to go RTG.

You could add nice parallax backdrops, pseudo lighting or particle effects, clouds drifting over, whatever, to a game while keeping the Amiga code intact. Could be tacky if done badly, but could add a pleasing "modern-retro" touch if done well.
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Old 08 September 2017, 13:23   #176
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In order to enanch amiga Aga, we should add some sorto of support for 3d. Even a very powerfull line mapping with rendering list would do a lot!

But the very powerfull improvment should be to have more than one core. 4 core for cpu, 4 blitter, and 4 copper that hold driver for blitter rendering, audio and other stuffs, that would be a very new powerfull Amiga!
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Old 08 September 2017, 13:36   #177
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@Tsak

As much as I enjoy both Counterstrike AND Quake, I defintly agree with you with regards to pixel graphics themed games.

I INSTANTLY purchased Owlboy when it was released, and its those quick to play when you have 10-15 spare minutes that appeals to me these days.

Blocky Skies on the Amiga is another game that instantly comes to mind when I think of the shift In MY personal preferance gamewise.

Or platformers/fighting games like Rainbow Island, Wonderboy and IK+/StreetFighter.

Simple, but effective brainteasers, with crisp (and simple graphics), soundtrack be it mp3/modern or Chip tune.

So I could not agree with you more! (OH, and ofcourse AlarCity )
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Old 08 September 2017, 14:00   #178
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I think a lot of simple looking modern games actually use a surprisingly complex stack of software layers to make the coding easier. Such games may be possible on a high-end Amiga but require a completely different approach at coding like doing low-level coding.
I was thinking about this only yesterday when I was playing about with OS4.1 in UAE. Obviously I realise that's not a Vampire and I can't see me getting a Vampire (simply because I already have a good system, no other reason) but I think the argument is just the same regardless for 3.9 with 060/RTG or 4.1.

I totally agree that on the surface the mass interest in "Indie Retro" seems like a great thing but the vast majority of it is written using tools like Unity, Game Maker and to a lesser extent Unreal Engine. Maybe there are some tools a bit like that for Amiga but I doubt there is anything of that quality. If there were higher level things like Mono or even Java then I think a lot more people would be all over it. Sure you will lose some people with the opinion of Alpine9000 (a perfectly valid viewpoint incidentally), but I think you'd gain far more than you'd lose. For example, I'm an experienced developer - I've done it for 26 years but when I look at Amiga development and the low level required, I don't look at it lovingly or even which a challenge, I just remember the bad old days when I was just starting to try to make my first steps in Windows programming in Borland where you had to manage all the window notifications and events manually. I know if I want to do anything much with the Amiga then I'll have to get my head back round it but it makes me shudder.

Of course none of the modern higher level tools are likely to happen in a hurry (probably not ever). Products like all of those have developed over more than a decade in most cases from multi-million dollar companies with thousands of developers. The Amiga is just never going to get that again unless some miracle happens.

The A1221 or whatever it is called will certainly be interesting for OS4 (I'm very tempted), what sort of knock-on effect that would have for high end 68k such as Vampire or 060/RTG, if any remains to be seen.
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Old 08 September 2017, 14:23   #179
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@MartinW

Obviously something like unity is out of the question, but something similar to cocos2d would be viable on a vampire if someone ported it.

You could write vampire games with gcc6's C++ which is nice and modern.

I guess it just depends on what motivates you. I personally don't really get why anyone would want to write a unity game and target it at Amiga, but everyone is different :-)
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Old 08 September 2017, 14:46   #180
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I can see why people that already make games might not have any interest in doing so for the Amiga. There's pretty much 0 financial incentive. But for a retro hobbyist I don't see why not. But yeah, for sure it needs to be something that's an interesting distraction from whatever you may do for a living I would think.

I just had a quick nose at that cocos2d. I think I know where all the crappy games the Mrs plays on her iPad came from now
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