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Old 19 July 2017, 13:54   #121
Miggy4eva
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Originally Posted by Dunny View Post
I thought this might bring some balance to a very, very stupid argument
Oh wow, how hilarious. The machines were very close in price compared to X68000

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Originally Posted by britelite View Post
Right back at you, if you're going to claim Wolf 3D can be oh so much faster on the A500 than on the ST, then show us some proof
Wildcat demo, Ambermoon, and others
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Old 19 July 2017, 13:55   #122
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Old 19 July 2017, 14:05   #123
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Originally Posted by Miggy4eva View Post
17 pages of hogwash.
Lots of talk but I bet any money we will NEVER see an improved ST Wolf. It's all talk.
it is technical talk that you can not even grasp!

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Originally Posted by Miggy4eva View Post
Wildcat demo, Ambermoon, and others
Did you try Ambermoon on 7.xMHz Amiga 500?!? or you watched YouTube videos "in speed-up emulators"?

Or you stick with dlfrsilver story that Ambermoon 3D part run silk smooth, 60FPS (because you saw it on youtube video in UAE turned to max. )? http://milan.kovac.cc/atari/dlfrsilver/
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Old 19 July 2017, 14:08   #124
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Originally Posted by Miggy4eva View Post
Wildcat demo, Ambermoon, and others
You're still going on about the Wildcat demo, even as people already explained to you that it's very much apples to oranges (and that it's not as fast as you claim).

Let's put it this way, please tell me what features the A500 has over the ST that would make a faster Wolf3d version possible? If you're going to mention the blitter or copper, then explain exactly how they would be useful. "OMG OMG AMIGA IS BEST" isn't going to cut it, I want some real explanation from you
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Old 19 July 2017, 14:23   #125
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Originally Posted by Miggy4eva View Post
What I mean is up to 1 million sales. After that, yes we all know that Mac and 286 dominated the market due to business and education sectors. This was bullshit because the A500 was better than both but the marketing and commercial connections just weren't there.
All right, so sales numbers only speak for themselves in some kind of ad-hoc situation where only Amiga sales numbers are relevant?

As far as I know, the X68000 outsold the Amiga by a factor of a thousand to one in relevant markets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miggy4eva
But that is the big boys game, the Amiga lost the game because of marketing and business reasons and nothing to do with hardware or software. It had everything and could do everything better than 68k Mac or 286.
X68000 wasn't even in the big boys game.
X68000 lost the game because of marketing and business reasons and nothing to do with the hardware or software. It had everything and could do everything better than 68k Mac or 286.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miggy4eva
every first person shooter is at one stage in its early life, a tech demo. Yes it will lose some FPS with addition of features but Wildcat demo could lose 50% of its frames per second and still be better than ST Wolf. Not to mention there will be further optimisations, and those additions won't cost 50% of fps anyway.
Quite the opposite. When you start making a general game out of your proof-of-concept demo scene, you start doing de-optimisations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miggy4eva
You don't have to be a coder to know what Amiga is capable of, and that some programs are not up to par. You don't have to be a coder to recognise an ST lazyport. You don't have to be a coder see the different between Lionheart and Streetfighter 2. You don't have to be a sprinter to see that Usain Bolt is faster than other sprinters.
You don't have to be a coder, but it helps a lot. I held the Amiga hardware in a much higher esteem before I actually tried to do anything with it. It's better than the ST hardware in almost every aspect, but that doesn't mean it outperforms the ST in every given situation.
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Old 19 July 2017, 14:39   #126
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Originally Posted by kovacm View Post
In this thread you have talk about Doug (user: dml) 3D engine for ST: http://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16682

[ Show youtube player ]

and there is talk about optimization even Ray engine. Also Ray mention on his site http://s390174849.online.de/ray.tscc.de/wolf3d.htm that plan for never-released version is to implement "a delta clear to draw floors/ceilings more quickly".
Thanks, appreciated. Agreed that there are things that could be done to improve performance over what Ray/TSCC built back in 2008.

However, I've checked out the video, read the last 4 pages of the "DOOM on atari st" thread, and checked out Ray's page about his Wolfenstein clone, but I cannot find any reference specifically to "Ray's Wolfenstein implementation could be 40% faster".
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Old 19 July 2017, 15:00   #127
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@kalms not sure on which page. "40% faster" could be my interpretation (in Miggy4eva style ) of what I read in this thread years ago... If I find time, I will re-read thread.
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Old 19 July 2017, 15:09   #128
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@Miggy4eva

Your enthusiasm for the Amiga is nice, but you are in an environment where lots of VERY experienced people who know the Amiga inside and out from the demo scene back when the Amiga was popular, from the demo scene today and some games programmers that had to code for it at its height, know the machine inside and out.

There are very few surprises to be had from the machine now, such was the clamour to extract every ounce of power out of the thing at its height.

You're attempting to argue with people whose knowledge is of a level of understanding of the hardware, thousands more than you.

If you think coming to a dedicated Amiga board will garner you lots of back slapping as you say how great the Amiga is, its probably not going to happen, we are all aware of its power..... and its shortcomings, and also well aware of other machines that didn't make the same impact in Europe, but had they done so, would have given the Amiga a bloody nose.

The X68000 is magnitudes more powerful than the Amiga, because it was in part used to develop arcade games on it, so it had to be as powerful or nearly as powerful to be able to playtest the games being developed.

The Archimedes was more powerful at 3D vectors than the A500, typical Acorn Computers priced their machine too highly like they did the BBC Model B before it, and they strangled themselves out of a bigger market share.

Megadrive had sprite capabilities that made the A500 look stupid, the SNES was no slouch either.

The Amiga benefitted by being a good all rounder, it didn't really excel at any one thing, it was simply OK at doing everything, and that was the key to its success.

Arguing that the Wildcat demo could become a game thats going to run at the same speed as demonstrated is nonsense.

Sure, on the surface it looks like a good attempt, but then theres no collision detection, theres no AI, theres no onscreen graphics like a gun with the relevant animation, theres no real map of the level, theres no enemies..... you can bet that adding all of these things will start to slow the 'game' down.

Your argument is no better than those Atari ST owners and Archimedes owners that claim that because the Phaeleon Giga Demo on the ST and the Power Demo on the Archimedes look quite close to Shadow of the Beast on the Amiga, that a near 1:1 version should have been released on their machines!

A demo doesn't have to worry about actual game mechanics, its already at an advantage simply from a visual perspective by having more resources available to making it look super duper.
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Old 19 July 2017, 15:18   #129
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Amusing thread as always!

I get when consoles and computers in comparable price brackets get compared, but to stick a Neo-Geo and X68000 in the same comparison is a bit silly, a £600 console with £200 games or a computer costing £3000 is hardly fair comparison!

If i had £3000 spare i would get A500, MD and SNES with plenty of all round games!

Games and fun are what matter and the Miggy had plenty of both.
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Old 19 July 2017, 15:26   #130
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Originally Posted by Amigajay View Post
Amusing thread as always!

I get when consoles and computers in comparable price brackets get compared, but to stick a Neo-Geo and X68000 in the same comparison is a bit silly, a £600 console with £200 games or a computer costing £3000 is hardly fair comparison!

If i had £3000 spare i would get A500, MD and SNES with plenty of all round games!

Games and fun are what matter and the Miggy had plenty of both.
I was going to argument that the ST was cheaper than the Amiga too, but I just made a quick research and found out the A500 was actually cheaper than an ST ? Does anyone confirm this ?

Also I found out Neo-Geo costed US$ 650 at the time while an A500 costed US$ 699 .... though probably there are some good 3 years of difference between those prices, at that point the A500 probably was already cheaper.

I don't disagree with your point, AmigaJay, is just that "OH MY GOD AMIGA BEATS EVERTHING" nonsense is really... nonsense. And notice that even then, the guy still says the Amiga is better than an X68000.

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Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
...
Good luck reasoning with him.
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Old 19 July 2017, 15:32   #131
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Atari ST was cheaper than Amiga 1000 (arguable: double cheaper)
Amiga 500 bring price down to ST level (probably was cheaper in some times/packages/countries)
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Old 19 July 2017, 15:35   #132
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Originally Posted by Miggy4eva View Post
17 pages of hogwash.
Lots of talk but I bet any money we will NEVER see an improved ST Wolf. It's all talk.
Careful with such claims as you might end up losing your money! The Atari scene is actually much more active than the current Amiga scene!
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Old 19 July 2017, 16:24   #133
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Originally Posted by Shatterhand View Post
I was going to argument that the ST was cheaper than the Amiga too, but I just made a quick research and found out the A500 was actually cheaper than an ST ? Does anyone confirm this ?

Also I found out Neo-Geo costed US$ 650 at the time while an A500 costed US$ 699 .... though probably there are some good 3 years of difference between those prices, at that point the A500 probably was already cheaper.

I don't disagree with your point, AmigaJay, is just that "OH MY GOD AMIGA BEATS EVERTHING" nonsense is really... nonsense. And notice that even then, the guy still says the Amiga is better than an X68000.



Good luck reasoning with him.
Yeah i wasn't aiming it at just you, i've seen the comparison many times here and on other forums.

Heck the Neo-Geo is one of my favourite consoles, don't get me wrong, i had the CD version, but for the average joe £200 a game was way too high.

The ST was mostly £100 cheaper than the A500 in the UK, same market so the comparison is fair, where as the X68000 was aimed at developers, so for one it was never aiming for the mass market, again if i owned one i would state the sales figures would never be in the millions just like the Neo-Geo.

But yes the X68000 has some great arcade games, that's because alot were developed on the machines! Other than these there really isn't a massive selection of games bar anime, hentei etc i would still rather an A500 over one anyday.

Yes i agree to say the Amiga 'beat' anything is childs play, what does that even mean?! It was a jack of all trades machine, but in general i really hate comparisons because the playing field is never level unless a machine came out the same year for roughly the same price then its pointless really.
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Old 19 July 2017, 16:48   #134
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When I go to Retrocomputing fairs, someone always brings a X68000 and people go all "ahhh" with Final Fight and Gradius 2... alas, 90% of the time I see a X68000 running it's one of those 2 games being played*

From what I get, the X68k actually has a huge library of games (probably as big as our beloved miggy), problem is that aside from the big names, people here have no knowledge/access to them. I guess it would be more or less a Japanese guy with an Amiga trying to find out that games like "Ruff 'n' Tumble" are great games on the system

I mean, heck, even here in the West people who never say/owned an amiga at the time thinks the system only has crap games because they will first look at the big/famous names... then he sees Final Fight, Shinobi, Strider, Street Fighter 2, and goes like "What the fuck is about this machine with crap 1 button games? " and then tosses the system away.

* With the FM Towns its Truxton 2. Always Truxton 2. I like it because I do know how to play it and I can usually reach level 3 or 4 with some ease (The FM Towns default level is a bit easier than the default arcade level and this helps a lot).. I never see people beating even level 1, so I look like a God to them when I play it
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Old 19 July 2017, 17:15   #135
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Ah let's let Miggy4eva make a fool out of himself on his own, he might not know the slightest about Amiga hardware but he's really good at that.

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Originally Posted by Shatterhand View Post
Also I found out Neo-Geo costed US$ 650 at the time while an A500 costed US$ 699 ...
Yeah but what is the main difference here?
A Neo Geo home game was probably over $100, while Amiga games were maybe $30 tops, with a thriving scene in Europe for "budget releases" at killer prices usually below the £10 mark.

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Originally Posted by Amigajay View Post
But yes the X68000 has some great arcade games, that's because alot were developed on the machines! Other than these there really isn't a massive selection of games bar anime, hentei etc i would still rather an A500 over one anyday.
The key to this is the market. X68000 was a Japan-exclusive machine. All the games library is catered for the Japanese people's taste.
I am sure a Japanese person looks at the Amiga games library and finds it lacking in many aspects.
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Old 19 July 2017, 17:24   #136
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I only saw one racing game for the X68000 that wasn't an arcade port that was anything near good.. it's called Overtake , and its not even all that great. Also even the arcade ports aren't really THAT good, people complain about its version of Super Hang-On and Chase HQ is also very troubled. Can't rememeber any other arcade port of racing games (but I've seen some HORRENDOUS racing games on the system).

Also no sports games. Love your Sensible Soccer? Never seen anything near that good on the X68k. I remember seeing only one soccer game and it was pretty meh...

I find this curious since japanese people usually like racing games and soccer games.

In the other hand, I've played some exclusive/original games on it that were very arcadey without being arcade ports and many of them were really good. A shitload of shoot'em ups that no Amiga game gets near in terms of overall quality.

I really loved this on the MSX. The Mega-Drive version isn't all that great, but when I saw the X68k I was just gobsmacked.

[ Show youtube player ]

Shame about the last level being basically impossible to beat
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Old 19 July 2017, 17:45   #137
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Well as I said, it's a different market. Those graphic adventure type games that flooded the X68K and PC-98 are very popular in Japan to this day.

The machine got the games people loved to play on computers in Japan. That's all that mattered.

Also console ownership in Japan up to this day is very normal as well as arcade attendance. One could argue, computer games had to be different from console and arcade games to make a mark, and I think that's what happened in the Japanese computer games market. It seems to me that things like "bringing the arcade home" weren't as important for adults owning computers, who enjoyed going to the arcade as an outing, different to people on the west, and diferent to people in third world countries too.

In countries like yours and mine, Shatterhand, you wouldn't normally own a console and a computer and go to the arcades, you were lucky if you owned one and if arcades were around still come 1998. We had to be happy with what we got. I never had a console until I was an adult. I just couldn't afford it and I had a computer to play games with. When I had none, I would go to the arcades seldom. My parents just couldn't have me going there all the time. So when I had a chance to have the "same" game at home without spending money in credits, it was joy all around.
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Old 19 July 2017, 17:52   #138
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Originally Posted by Miggy4eva View Post
Oh wow, how hilarious. The machines were very close in price compared to X68000
When you already talk about X68000, I believe that many of you already know but for newcomers like Miggy4eva we probably need to note that thanks to AnimaInCorpore, we can play some of X68000 games on shity computer like Atari Falcon is:

[ Show youtube player ]
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Old 19 July 2017, 18:11   #139
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@Zarchos any YT video of this game on original Archie to recommend?
This has been online for about 9 years :

[ Show youtube player ]

And as I am not a cheater : it runs on a 12 Mhz (CPU and bus) Archie.
Of course that would be slower on a 1st generation Archimedes at 8 Mhz.

I'll make a video of Doom on the Archies.
There are some videos on the RISC PCs on YT, already ...
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Old 19 July 2017, 18:59   #140
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Well as I said, it's a different market. Those graphic adventure type games that flooded the X68K and PC-98 are very popular in Japan to this day.

The machine got the games people loved to play on computers in Japan. That's all that mattered.

Also console ownership in Japan up to this day is very normal as well as arcade attendance. One could argue, computer games had to be different from console and arcade games to make a mark, and I think that's what happened in the Japanese computer games market. It seems to me that things like "bringing the arcade home" weren't as important for adults owning computers, who enjoyed going to the arcade as an outing, different to people on the west, and diferent to people in third world countries too.

In countries like yours and mine, Shatterhand, you wouldn't normally own a console and a computer and go to the arcades, you were lucky if you owned one and if arcades were around still come 1998. We had to be happy with what we got. I never had a console until I was an adult. I just couldn't afford it and I had a computer to play games with. When I had none, I would go to the arcades seldom. My parents just couldn't have me going there all the time. So when I had a chance to have the "same" game at home without spending money in credits, it was joy all around.
I had two things to my favour: a father who had an awesome job for most of my childhood and who also happened to be a games fanatic (still a gamer today going into his sixties). Just the fact I owned an Amiga back at the time is amazing, for us it was bloody expensive.... now as a grown-up I can appreciate how luck I was as a kid.
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