Truth about amiga in video editing

[kolla]

Originally Posted by Amigo79

If they used amiga,was for lightwave,right?
Not for a particular amiga power?

To begin with LightWave was Amiga-only, but it quickly changed, especially after it became obvious that Amiga was falling behind in all sorts of ways, main issue being Commodore going bust.

[kolla]

Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT

But you don't seem to accept that the Amiga and Video Toaster WERE used for those shows.

But not much, and not for video editing.

[roondar]

Originally Posted by kolla

But not much, and not for video editing.

So, let's check that. Using public sources from the era.

On Seaquest:
https://variety.com/1993/tv/news/amb...ga-f-x-104403/

Originally Posted by Variety/Amblin

Amblin sets sail with AMIGA F/X

....
The $ 1 million-per-episode series featuring Roy Scheider relies on computer-generated images of the ocean that cost a fraction of traditional systems.
Using an Amiga computer from Commodore Intl. Ltd. and the Video Toaster graphics board from NewTek Inc., Amblin is able to produce images that would normally cost $ 200,000 for a fifth that amount per episode.
“This show would not be feasible without this cost savings,” said Tony Thomopoulos, Amblin TV president.
...
Amblin has purchased 30 machines. By comparison, a single Silicon Graphics Inc. workstation can run as high as $ 60,000.
Moreover, the Toaster includes a number of software programs, including Lightwave 3D, which lets designers construct objects, coat them with realistic colors and textures, and then animate them.
TV viewers in L.A. got a glimpse of the Video Toaster’s handiwork last Thursday in KCOP-TV’s airing of “Babylon 5,” a two-hour science-fiction telepic from Warner TV. It will be seen on another 150 stations nationwide.
The show’s 80 or so effects shots, done by Ron Thornton’s Foundation Imaging in Valencia, include the spaceships and atmosphere. The price tag, said Thornton , was less than $ 500,000.
...

On Babylon 5
http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/making/thornton.html

Originally Posted by
Ron Thornton (Foundation Imaging) interview

The pilot "The Gathering" was rendered by eight interconnected Amiga 2000 computers with Video Toaster boards which were connected to an IBM computer that stored the images in five gigabytes of memory.
...
Thornton: "It just sort of happened. I ended up getting one of these machines, the Video Toaster, and I started playing with it and it was like 'give it a year or so and this could work.'
"This was way after Captain Power. Captain Power had turned me off it (Computer Generated Special Effects), 'cause the stuff didn't look very good and there was no texture mapping per se. It was all very blocky looking, the animation wasn't that hot and they had real problems delivering the stuff; it was just taking them forever to do it."
"I had an Amiga for a while and it had a number of 3D packages which I sort of toyed with, but the Toaster was the first decent one."
Eric: "How long did it take from realizing that the Toaster could be used for effects work until Foundation Imaging was up and running?"
Thornton: "It was probably about a year and a half, during which time I was working with Todd Rundgren in Northern California on one of his shows.
"But a lot of it was the wait. Once I convinced Joe [Straczynski] and John Copeland that this could be done this way it suddenly opened up a whole new venue and I did a bunch of tests; then we went in and pitched it once more to Peter [Ledger]. At least this time they could see that we could do it, that we could create some of this imagery."
...
Effects are designed on an accelerated Amiga 2000 with a Video Toaster board in it, using LightWave 3-D and Modeler 3-D.
...

So. You are wrong.

There is really no argument here, I don't know why you desperately want it to be false, but reality doesn't care about your reasons. The Amiga was used for these shows. And not just 'a little bit'.

The fact they eventually moved on to other means for generating VFX means well, precisely nothing for the argument. That would be like claiming SGI's where not used in Hollywood because people don't use them now.

And as a little bonus, here's how one of the most iconic shots in movie history got made:



I could go on for quite a while here, but I feel this post is quite long enough as is.

[kolla]

Originally Posted by roondar

So. You are wrong.

All your links and info pretty much confirms what I have been writing all along, sheesh.

[Amigo79]

The amiga used to model the t rex of jurassic park is a new thing.
Jurassic Park was publicized as a Silicon Graphics product.

Thanks for this.

Howewer I think is now obvious that amiga was not the dominator in high budget video editing.

An interesting thing is the exact year of introduction of a complete toaster with flyer,
the year of the avid,and the two compared,also as market share.

[kolla]

Originally Posted by Amigo79

The amiga used to model the t rex of jurassic park is a new thing.

Read what the text says - it was used to make initial animations which then used as the basis for the dino operators. It was essentially used as a sketch tool.

And again - this is not video editing.

I really don't grasp this Toaster vs Avid thing, as the two products were used for vastly different things at this time.

[Amigo79]

okay this is not video editing,howewer the sense of what I say is expanded to the use for movies and TV,high budget.

there is

at this page
http://www.amigahistory.plus.com/fau/movies.html

"Terminator II", motion picture.
Amiga generated morphs.

ITS TRUE?

I remember of terminator 2 as a light and magic product,and that light and magic used silicon graphics.

[kolla]

Originally Posted by Amigo79

I remember of terminator 2 as a light and magic product,and that light and magic used silicon graphics.

"Looks legit to me!"

[roondar]

Originally Posted by kolla

All your links and info pretty much confirms what I have been writing all along, sheesh.

You keep writing that the Amiga was not or at best barely used. My links show that this is wrong. So no, I didn't confirm your posts, I showed you (and hopefully others who read this) that the Amiga was in fact used more frequently and for bigger projects than you admit.

After all, my reply was to this:

Originally Posted by Kolla

But not much, and not for video editing.

And the 'not much' part of that statement is categorically false. As in: it's absolutely not the truth, yet you keep repeating it.

Hence my longer reply.

Originally Posted by Amigo79

okay this is not video editing,howewer the sense of what I say is expanded to the use for movies and TV,high budget.

there is

ITS TRUE?

I remember of terminator 2 as a light and magic product,and that light and magic used silicon graphics.

The Amiga was not used for any of the final graphics in Terminator 2. It may have been used in preproduction but I can't find any concrete evidence it was (as in, a quick Google only finds some random forum posts and that's hardly conclusive).

So, I'm gonna say: no. That is not true.

[kolla]

Originally Posted by roondar

You keep writing that the Amiga was not or at best barely used. My links show that this is wrong. So no, I didn't confirm your posts, I showed you (and hopefully others who read this) that the Amiga was in fact used more frequently and for bigger projects than you admit.

I never said Amiga wasn't used, but the extent to which is was used is mostly overrated by Amiga zealots. In case of Babylon5 it was used in the pilot, and to some extent in first season. For CGI and "special effects". Not so much, if at all, for editing video footage. They quickly moved to PCs as soon as Lightwave was available for PC (another thing Amiga zealots keep "forgetting" to mention, that everyone just could not get away from Amiga fast enough). Just read the lurker's guide to Babylon 5 (or whatever it was called) for detailed info.

[roondar]

Originally Posted by kolla

I never said Amiga wasn't used, but the extent to which is was used is mostly overrated by Amiga zealots. In case of Babylon5 it was used in the pilot, and to some extent in first season. For CGI and "special effects". Not so much, if at all, for editing video footage. They quickly moved to PCs as soon as Lightwave was available for PC (another thing Amiga zealots keep "forgetting" to mention, that everyone just could not get away from Amiga fast enough). Just read the lurker's guide to Babylon 5 (or whatever it was called) for detailed info.

So, you said exactly what I claimed you did - that the Amiga was barely used. Which is false (as I've shown)*. No matter how often you keep repeating it.

As to why they moved to PC's... The thing that people who don't like the claims of said 'Amiga zealots' keep forgetting is that Commodore went bust. Of course companies moved away from the platform after it was no longer on the market (NewTek included). You seem to claim these two events had nothing to do with one another. Which is IMHO misguided at best.

Same goes for the whole "couldn't get away fast enough" stuff. This is merely your opinion. One that seems rather heavily biased. You certainly didn't provide compelling evidence for your opinion. Heck, even the document you cite (the Lurkers guide) seems much more in line with my position than yours. According to it, they only switched to PC's when LightWave became available for PC's. Which was in 1995 - a year after Commodore went bust and partway through season two of the show.

*) To make this clear, I never claimed anything about the Amiga being used for editing. To me, that is completely irrelevant to the point at hand. I am talking about Video Toaster/LightWave/Imagine/the preproduction use, etc.

[kolla]

Originally Posted by roondar

So, you said exactly what I claimed you did - that the Amiga was barely used. Which is false (as I've shown)*. No matter how often you keep repeating it.

The only thing you have shown over and over is that I am right - sorry.

As to why they moved to PC's... The thing that people who don't like the claims of said 'Amiga zealots' keep forgetting is that Commodore went bust.

Oh yeah, I totally missed that moment. Sheesh, how could I have forgotten?! I even stayed up night after night on IRC to witness the drama as the press conferences were live-reported there. I also have an original VHS tape of Deathbed Vigil from Dave Haynie and other "memorials".

Of course companies moved away from the platform after it was no longer on the market (NewTek included). You seem to claim these two events had nothing to do with one another. Which is IMHO misguided at best.

They are connected, but not as much as "bang for buck" was changing away from Amiga regardless of Commodore - x86 was not only catching up, it was surpassing Amiga in CPU power. And SGI systems were dropping in price as well, and Macs were moving to PowerPC.

Even if Commodore had survived, NewTek and others would have moved on - heck, even Commodore would have moved on.

Same goes for the whole "couldn't get away fast enough" stuff. This is merely your opinion. One that seems rather heavily biased. You certainly didn't provide compelling evidence for your opinion. Heck, even the document you cite (the Lurkers guide) seems much more in line with my position than yours. According to it, they only switched to PC's when LightWave became available for PC's. Which was in 1995 - a year after Commodore went bust and partway through season two of the show.

Exactly. As soon as their tool, Lightwave, was available for something else than Amiga... bye bye Amiga.

*) To make this clear, I never claimed anything about the Amiga being used for editing. To me, that is completely irrelevant to the point at hand. I am talking about Video Toaster/LightWave/Imagine/the preproduction use, etc.

Oh really, so all you have been posting has been off topic since the very start. Good to know.

*plonk* as we used to say back in the days.

[Nosferax]

So now there's two trolls and flamebaiters... Great.

[roondar]

Originally Posted by kolla

The only thing you have shown over and over is that I am right - sorry.


Oh yeah, I totally missed that moment. Sheesh, how could I have forgotten?! I even stayed up night after night on IRC to witness the drama as the press conferences were live-reported there. I also have an original VHS tape of Deathbed Vigil from Dave Haynie and other "memorials".

They are connected, but not as much as "bang for buck" was changing away from Amiga regardless of Commodore - x86 was not only catching up, it was surpassing Amiga in CPU power. And SGI systems were dropping in price as well, and Macs were moving to PowerPC.

Even if Commodore had survived, NewTek and others would have moved on - heck, even Commodore would have moved on.

Exactly. As soon as their tool, Lightwave, was available for something else than Amiga... bye bye Amiga.

Oh really, so all you have been posting has been off topic since the very start. Good to know.

*plonk* as we used to say back in the days.

I don't agree with any of what you posted there, but arguing with you is utterly pointless. Suffice to say I still think you're wrong, but don't care anymore.

In short:

It's too warm for this, I'm out. Enjoy the thread.

[Foebane]

Originally Posted by kolla

"Looks legit to me!"

Is that an actual still from one of the Wayne's World movies? Cool!

I never saw those, even though I like Mike Myers in other things like Austin Powers and Shrek. Really must get around to seeing those movies, one day.

[kolla]

Originally Posted by Foebane

Is that an actual still from one of the Wayne's World movies? Cool!

Yes it is and not without reason. Brad Carvey who made the Video Toaster, is brother of Dana Carvey, aka Garth in Wayne's world. Dana Carvey has stated that he got lots of inspiration for Garth from his brother.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_...ration_systems

[Photon]

Originally Posted by Amigo79

My question is not for fanatic Amiga users.

I have the doubt,that Amiga did NOT dominated the scene of video editing.

That its not true that amiga has been heavily used for start trek,babylon 5,seaquest.

But that the use of amiga was marginal,and also that these was special cases.

I know that was Macintosh+Avid card to dominate video editing.

In the world of video editing,video toaster was only an alternative,low cost solution.
Professionals used Avid.

Welcome to the board. I think it will be difficult to attempt truthing, because the facts are in by now, and pretty well-documented for both platforms. Me, I don't give a shit. I enjoy Amiga for completely different things.

Video #1 -> Here is Computer Chronicles comparing Amiga, Mac, and PC for desktop video in 1990. At 5:30, Amiga Vision is demonstrated, which can produce finished broadcast quality video.

Desktop video is many things.

Editing digital video requires foremost large enough available harddisks and a software package, not a specific platform. At 15:19, a $50000-$80000 Avid solution is demonstrated. But it can't produce broadcast quality video. It digitizes the original footage, and this copy is used as a tool to establish exactly how the videotape editor will later cut the tape manually.

For most desktops, even expanded with custom boards, heavy-duty rendering video clips took so long that SGI got the edge here in 1991. SGI systems were extremely expensive, but only with the new architecture could you significantly reduce rendering times.

But all of the platforms can be used in various steps involving video, such as modeling, titling, animation, and also rendering, using various software packages. But the Avid package offers none of these steps until much, much later in history.

At 21:09, an industry professional is asked for a verdict, and he places the Amiga in first place and the Mac in second place of these three.

From their History, it seems Avid didn't get traction in their niche until 1995, that the video was still cut manually, and that they offered no video production tools until a decade later.

Video #2 -> In this later Computer Chronicles episode from 1990 entitled Amiga 3000, the Video Toaster is demonstrated. The most relevant part starts at 18:18, showing a rendered intro modeled and animated in LightWave 3D, and other features.

As you can see, the solutions are total opposites in price and number of features, and neither offered proper desktop video editing as we know it in 1990.

[Amigo79]

thanks for the complete answer,i will read it with attention

[idrougge]

Originally Posted by Amigo79

Howewer I think is now obvious that amiga was not the dominator in high budget video editing.

I think this is your problem. No-one has said that the Amiga had any dominant position in video editing. The Video Toaster was not used for video editing. It was not a non-linear editing solution because non-linear editing was not possible outside of laboratories when it was made.

Let go of the editing argument.

[kolla]

Originally Posted by idrougge

It was not a non-linear editing solution because non-linear editing was not possible outside of laboratories when it was made.

It was with the Flyer, but it never really got much traction, as it came too late.