English Amiga Board


Go Back   English Amiga Board > Support > support.WinUAE

 
 
Thread Tools
Old 19 May 2009, 16:13   #701
Ed Cruse
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Las Cruces, USA
Age: 66
Posts: 351
Quote:
Originally Posted by hexaae View Post
Please can you comment my previous posts about PPaint and about how incorrect game proportions look with the new KAR?
It's strange that "circle" has correct aspect while everything else has not.
Sorry, I don't have PPaint, I can't comment on it. I'll go back and look at the message and see what I can do.

Something that you might not be aware of, when I use the circle program I NEVER use KAR. I only set aspect-ratio to 5:4 to compensate for my 5:4 monitor. Something else, the circles all come out round when using autoscale, min overscan and max overscan. The only circle that comes out wrong is the PAL circle on a PAL display using FS.
Ed Cruse is offline  
Old 19 May 2009, 16:59   #702
Ed Cruse
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Las Cruces, USA
Age: 66
Posts: 351
Quote:
Originally Posted by hexaae View Post
Please can you comment my previous posts about PPaint and about how incorrect game proportions look with the new KAR?
It's strange that "circle" has correct aspect while everything else has not.
I'm sorry, I don't know what you want me to tell you. I'm viewing in Windows with a 5:4 monitor so everything is stretched. The first three circles look stretched and the 4th looks round. Keeping in mind my monitor, I'd say the first three are round and the 4th is flattened.

All I really know here is the circle program. All the circle distortions are calculated, not determined by experimenting. I've tested it with WinUAE, my 3000 with a VGA crt monitor, and with my 1200 using a 1986 1080 crt monitor. With the exception of PAL using FS with WinUAE (possible bug), all the circles come out round. I'm very confident that the circle program works correctly when displayed on a properly adjusted 4:3 monitor. What I mean by properly adjusted is measuring the horiz and vert dimensions of the Amiga display and dividing and getting 4:3.

The circle program is technically correct, and the 4:3 is technically correct, that is the base line to figure out what other problems there might be. Like the programers of games adjusting their monitors differently and distorting things to make them look right. Whether that truly is a problem I don't know, but we have to start somewhere. That somewhere is on a technically correct WinUAE and that's what Toni is trying to do. The problem is he's getting so much conflicting information his head is spinning.
Ed Cruse is offline  
Old 19 May 2009, 17:16   #703
hexaae
Registered User
hexaae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Italy
Age: 43
Posts: 1,349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Cruse View Post
Sorry, I don't have PPaint, I can't comment on it. I'll go back and look at the message and see what I can do.
PPaint is free on Aminet: http://aminet.net/search?query=ppaint

Quote:
Something that you might not be aware of, when I use the circle program I NEVER use KAR. I only set aspect-ratio to 5:4 to compensate for my 5:4 monitor. Something else, the circles all come out round when using autoscale, min overscan and max overscan. The only circle that comes out wrong is the PAL circle on a PAL display using FS.
So you always use KAR disabled + Fullscreen, or you use Windowed mode?
hexaae is offline  
Old 19 May 2009, 17:17   #704
Ed Cruse
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Las Cruces, USA
Age: 66
Posts: 351
Quote:
Originally Posted by hrmes View Post
Here is a simple theory about drawing perfect circles that doesn't care about what kind of display device you have or what shape of pixels it has as long as it's 4/3 in proportions.

If the screen has a 4/3 aspect ratio that means that it is one third wider than it's physical height.
So to draw a full-sized square or a circle on such a screen you must use all the vertical resolution and 3/4 of the horizontal resolution .

These are the dimensions in pixels that a perfect circle/square should have in various resolutions:

VGA:
height: 480
width: 640/1.333= 480 - correct because we know that VGA has square pixels.

PAL hires laced:
height: 512
width: 640/1.333= 480

PAL hires:
height: 256
width: 640/1.333= 480

PAL lores laced:
height: 512
width: 320/1.333= 240

PAL super hires laced:
height: 512
width : 1280/1.333= 960

NTSC hires laced:
height: 400
width: 640/1.333= 480

NTSC hires:
height: 200
width: 640/1.333= 480

NTSC lores laced:
height: 400
width: 320/1.333= 240

NTSC super hires laced:
height: 400
width: 1280/1.333= 960

If these circles look correct on real hardware then the emulation should also display them correctly.
I'll be darn, I agree, at least with NTSC interlace and PAL interlace. The horiz/vert ratios of your circles are the same as the circle program's. You came up with the same thing coming from another direction. Good show.
Ed Cruse is offline  
Old 19 May 2009, 17:17   #705
Ed Cruse
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Las Cruces, USA
Age: 66
Posts: 351
Quote:
Originally Posted by hexaae View Post
PPaint is free on Aminet: http://aminet.net/search?query=ppaint


So you always use KAR disabled + Fullscreen, or you use Windowed mode?

Full screen
Ed Cruse is offline  
Old 19 May 2009, 17:24   #706
aidenn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Poland
Posts: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Cruse View Post
I'm sorry, I don't know what you want me to tell you. I'm viewing in Windows with a 5:4 monitor so everything is stretched. The first three circles look stretched and the 4th looks round. Keeping in mind my monitor, I'd say the first three are round and the 4th is flattened.
Why are you using a 4:3 resolution on a 5:4 monitor?
aidenn is offline  
Old 19 May 2009, 17:27   #707
hexaae
Registered User
hexaae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Italy
Age: 43
Posts: 1,349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Cruse View Post
I'm sorry, I don't know what you want me to tell you. I'm viewing in Windows with a 5:4 monitor so everything is stretched. The first three circles look stretched and the 4th looks round. Keeping in mind my monitor, I'd say the first three are round and the 4th is flattened.
Ok, I have a 16:10... All the first column (with KAR disabled) looks good.
Second column is squashed when KAR is enabled.

Quote:
All I really know here is the circle program. All the circle distortions are calculated, not determined by experimenting. I've tested it with WinUAE, my 3000 with a VGA crt monitor, and with my 1200 using a 1986 1080 crt monitor. With the exception of PAL using FS with WinUAE (possible bug), all the circles come out round. I'm very confident that the circle program works correctly when displayed on a properly adjusted 4:3 monitor. What I mean by properly adjusted is measuring the horiz and vert dimensions of the Amiga display and dividing and getting 4:3.
I'm not that sure since single pixel units have different aspect ratio on every monitor... isn't it like measuring with a meter with wider/stretched centimeters? You correct ellipses dimensions assuming pixels have always the same unit size but this one changes with a different aspect ratio.
You take into account aspect ratio when calculating but not the pixel units themselves.
Am I wrong?
Unfortunately I can't test circle on a real A1200 + TV.

PS
PPaint does apply aspect ratio adjustments in PAL and NTSC lowres/hires interlaced drawing circles...

Last edited by hexaae; 19 May 2009 at 19:14.
hexaae is offline  
Old 19 May 2009, 17:35   #708
Toni Wilen
WinUAE developer
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland
Age: 44
Posts: 23,135
Circle program tests in PAL and NTSC modes. Values in centimeters (only 0.5cm accuracy, difficult to measure accurately)

PAL , PAL = PAL mode, PAL circle
PAL , NTSC = PAL mode, NTSC circle
NTSC, PAL = NTSC mode, PAL circle
NTSC, NTSC = NTSC mode, NTSC circle

Old Salora 24"(?) (late 1980s):

PAL, PAL : 20.5 x 22.0 (0.93)
PAL, NTSC : 20.5 x 17.0 (1.21)

NTSC, PAL : 20.5 x 27.0 (0.76)
NTSC, NTSC: 20.5 x 21.0 (0.98)

(really old, geometry problems, results ignored)

~5 years old LG 16:9 CRT (near-flat):

PAL, PAL : 19.5 x 19.5 (1.00)
PAL, NTSC: 19.5 x 15.0 (1.30)

NTSC, PAL : 19.5 x 23.5 (0.83)
NTSC, NTSC: 19.5 x 18.0 (1.08)

37 LCD LG + Composite + 4:3 mode

PAL, PAL : 27.5 x 27.5 (1.00)
PAL, NTSC : 27.5 x 21.5 (1.28)

NTSC, PAL : 27.5 x 32.5 (0.85)
NTSC, NTSC: 27.5 x 26.0 (1.06)

37 LCD LG + VGA + 4:3 mode

PAL, PAL : 26.0 x 27.0 (0.96)
PAL, NTSC : 26.0 x 21.5 (1.21)

NTSC, PAL : 25.0 x 30.5 (0.82)
NTSC, NTSC: 25.0 x 24.0 (1.04)

M2794D + VGA + 4:3 mode

PAL, PAL : 17.5 x 18.5 (0.95)
PAL, NTSC : 17.5 x 14.5 (1.21)

NTSC, PAL : 18.5 x 22.0 (0.84)
NTSC, NTSC: 18.5 x 17.5 (1.06)

M2794D + Composite + 4:3 mode

PAL, PAL : 19.5 x 19.5 (1.00)
PAL, NTSC : 19.5 x 15.0 (1.30)

NTSC, PAL : 19.5 x 23.0 (0.85)
NTSC, NTSC : 19.5 x 18.0 (1.08)

(VGA = Indivision AGA)

----

PAL in PAL means perfect circle (1.00 ratio) if "TV-mode". VGA means ~0.95 ratio. This must have been the source for confusion.

Interestingly NTSC in NTSC was never 1.00, also there is no clear difference between composite or VGA. At least 1.04 * (1.00 / 0.95) = 1.09 so NTSC might have same difference, unfortunately it is difficult to measure accurately.

-> PAL issue is solved. NTSC not being 1.00 is still confusing.. (perhaps real NTSC device has 1.00 ratio?)

--> I'll add "TV" and "VGA" aspect ratio options.
Toni Wilen is online now  
Old 19 May 2009, 17:43   #709
hexaae
Registered User
hexaae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Italy
Age: 43
Posts: 1,349
Here is an LBM image (to be used on the Amiga side, saved in PAL HiRes-Laced) created with PPaint that applies aspect ratio adjustments in PAL and NTSC.
The respective circles (PAL and NTSC) look perfect and have correct measures when seen in PAL 320x256 or PAL 640x512 (intelaced), and NTSC 320x200 or NTSC 640x400 (interlaced).
When I enable KAR in Fullscreen/Fullwindow they get wrong proportions.



If PPaint draws it as a perfect circle in PAL or NTSC, it should be the same on a real PAL/NTSC (i.e. if you see them distorted on the TV, it's a TV problem. Not something to be emulated IMHO).
Attached Files
File Type: zip circs.zip (1.9 KB, 103 views)

Last edited by hexaae; 19 May 2009 at 19:15.
hexaae is offline  
Old 19 May 2009, 18:04   #710
Retro-Nerd
Missile Command Champion

Retro-Nerd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Germany
Age: 47
Posts: 11,737
My Sony Triniton flat CRT TV shows a perfect circle in 640x512 or 320x256 with your circs.lbm. I never expected anything else. Checked the geometry ages ago with a test DVD.
Retro-Nerd is offline  
Old 19 May 2009, 18:30   #711
Toni Wilen
WinUAE developer
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland
Age: 44
Posts: 23,135
Stop posting emulation screenshots. They are useless, they don't prove anything. (see my post above for more useful information..)

---

http://files.winuae.net/beta/winuae.zip includes ratio selection box, I think this should make everyone happy. (or not)

You have 1 day
Toni Wilen is online now  
Old 19 May 2009, 18:50   #712
hexaae
Registered User
hexaae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Italy
Age: 43
Posts: 1,349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni Wilen View Post
Stop posting emulation screenshots. They are useless, they don't prove anything. (see my post above for more useful information..)

---

http://files.winuae.net/beta/winuae.zip includes ratio selection box, I think this should make everyone happy. (or not)

You have 1 day
I've posted the sshot just for eye pleasures, circs.zip is the file to test on the Amiga side/real Amiga + TV.

Last edited by hexaae; 19 May 2009 at 19:09.
hexaae is offline  
Old 19 May 2009, 18:54   #713
hexaae
Registered User
hexaae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Italy
Age: 43
Posts: 1,349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd View Post
My Sony Triniton flat CRT TV shows a perfect circle in 640x512 or 320x256 with your circs.lbm. I never expected anything else. Checked the geometry ages ago with a test DVD.
Perfect: they are perfect as well for me with WUAE and without the KAR option (same as KAR:VGA with latest beta) What I say from the beginning.

Last edited by hexaae; 19 May 2009 at 19:45.
hexaae is offline  
Old 19 May 2009, 19:29   #714
hexaae
Registered User
hexaae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Italy
Age: 43
Posts: 1,349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni Wilen View Post
http://files.winuae.net/beta/winuae.zip includes ratio selection box, I think this should make everyone happy. (or not)

You have 1 day
I like it.
Why you added "Disabled" to VGA and TV aspect correction pop-down list? Shouldn't be disabled already if you disable KAR checkmark? Redundant.

There is still a problem: if I switch from Fullscreen/Fullwindow (KAR:VGA) to Windowed it has a different aspect ratio (looks stretched for me)! To have the same aspect I must select KAR:TV. Shouldn't the aspect be the same with a unique KAR setting?
In short for me:

Fullwindow/Fullscreen
KAR:VGA ok
KAR:TV squashed
Windowed
KAR:VGA stretched vertically
KAR:TV ok

Fullscreen, with or without Vsync enabled, still has border flashing in a grayer black, and when emulation is suspended (F12) shows "trials" of the WUAE panel if you move it around. Is this ok?

Last edited by hexaae; 19 May 2009 at 19:59.
hexaae is offline  
Old 19 May 2009, 21:07   #715
Toni Wilen
WinUAE developer
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland
Age: 44
Posts: 23,135
Quote:
Originally Posted by hexaae View Post
I like it.
Why you added "Disabled" to VGA and TV aspect correction pop-down list? Shouldn't be disabled already if you disable KAR checkmark? Redundant.
Thats the best I can do without causing random side-effects..

Quote:
There is still a problem: if I switch from Fullscreen/Fullwindow (KAR:VGA) to Windowed it has a different aspect ratio (looks stretched for me)! To have the same aspect I must select KAR:TV. Shouldn't the aspect be the same with a unique KAR setting?
Normal windowed is ignored (because it does not fully work as expected), but it is now enabled (download winuae.zip again). It will disappear if someone makes stupid complaint

Quote:
Fullscreen, with or without Vsync enabled, still has border flashing in a grayer black, and when emulation is suspended (F12) shows "trials" of the WUAE panel if you move it around. Is this ok?
Missing information error. D3D only? not in D3D? and so on. (also TOO LATE)
Toni Wilen is online now  
Old 19 May 2009, 21:42   #716
hexaae
Registered User
hexaae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Italy
Age: 43
Posts: 1,349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni Wilen View Post
Normal windowed is ignored (because it does not fully work as expected), but it is now enabled (download winuae.zip again). It will disappear if someone makes stupid complaint
Nothing changed. Windowed with KAR:VGA is not like Fullscreen KAR:VGA.

Quote:
Missing information error. D3D only? not in D3D? and so on. (also TOO LATE)
D3D only. Nullfilter etc. are ok. The rest is optional and doesn't change that behaviour.
hexaae is offline  
Old 19 May 2009, 22:31   #717
Ed Cruse
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Las Cruces, USA
Age: 66
Posts: 351
Quote:
Originally Posted by aidenn View Post
Why are you using a 4:3 resolution on a 5:4 monitor?
I was viewing the link hexxaae gave me on my PC, I don't do the internet with WinUAE. The monitor on my PC is a 5:4, and that's the problem with viewing his link.
Ed Cruse is offline  
Old 19 May 2009, 22:49   #718
Ed Cruse
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Las Cruces, USA
Age: 66
Posts: 351
Quote:
Originally Posted by hexaae View Post
Ok, I have a 16:10... All the first column (with KAR disabled) looks good.
Second column is squashed when KAR is enabled.



I'm not that sure since single pixel units have different aspect ratio on every monitor... isn't it like measuring with a meter with wider/stretched centimeters? You correct ellipses dimensions assuming pixels have always the same unit size but this one changes with a different aspect ratio.
You take into account aspect ratio when calculating but not the pixel units themselves.
Am I wrong?
Unfortunately I can't test circle on a real A1200 + TV.

PS
PPaint does apply aspect ratio adjustments in PAL and NTSC lowres/hires interlaced drawing circles...
All I can tell you is I get nearly perfect circles with the circle program on my LCD monitor, my fairly old vga crt monitor, and my very old Commodore crt monitor. I did NOT adjust the monitors until the circles were round, I adjusted first with a tape measure until the displays were 4:3 and then ran the circle program. I did not fudge the data. The circles weren't perfect when measured with a tape measure but they were darn accurate for this test and they looked perfectly round. I'm getting pretty darn good at spotting circles that are barely out of round.
Ed Cruse is offline  
Old 20 May 2009, 00:10   #719
NoX1911
2064
NoX1911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Germany
Posts: 170
Here is another attempt to achieve correct PAR. It depends on the luma composite signal of a real A500.

It was sampled with a PAL capture card and converted to square pixels to be comparable against pixel-exact output of winuae.

Capture was done with saa7134 chip on 704x576@52µs (philips), cropped to 703 and resized to 768x576 (more here: PDF - Der Karl's Capture Cards aspect ratio for Dummies (on the bottom)).

The width (at same height) differs in relation of 270 pixels (capture) vs 260 pixels (winuae). Thus the result is a PAR of ~270:260 (1.0384615:1).

Its maybe possible to refine the value by comparing larger pictures (cli window, fullscreen). On the other hand its matching quite well already (look at the picture below). The remaining gray halos are subpixel artefacts from bilinear horizontal scaling.

Edit:
I've done some tests with winuae. The WinUAE KAR/TV PAR is slightly higher (picture is larger in width) than the one i measured. What is it based on/derived of and what's the exact PAR or calculation done on the picture?

I've also asked in the german doom9 board for confirmation/validation of that method. Still pending.

2 pictures attached:



A500 composite capture:

Last edited by NoX1911; 20 May 2009 at 03:37.
NoX1911 is offline  
Old 20 May 2009, 09:18   #720
Toni Wilen
WinUAE developer
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland
Age: 44
Posts: 23,135
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoX1911 View Post
Here is another attempt to achieve correct PAR. It depends on the luma composite signal of a real A500.
Thanks, finally something different

Quote:
I've done some tests with winuae. The WinUAE KAR/TV PAR is slightly higher (picture is larger in width) than the one i measured. What is it based on/derived of and what's the exact PAR or calculation done on the picture?
What filter configuration? Note that "normal", FS and autoscale all use slightly different calculation methods (they will be "unified" when all modes are confirmed working correctly)
Toni Wilen is online now  
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
WinUAE 2.5.1 beta series Toni Wilen support.WinUAE 69 22 December 2012 10:22
WinUAE 2.3.3 beta series Toni Wilen support.WinUAE 124 17 September 2011 15:48
WinUAE 2.3.2 beta series Toni Wilen support.WinUAE 79 31 May 2011 19:39
WinUAE 2.3.0 beta series (was 2.2.1) Toni Wilen support.WinUAE 229 22 September 2010 19:20

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 18:39.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Page generated in 0.10539 seconds with 14 queries