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Old 16 September 2003, 23:07   #1
Mache
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CONTENT of original releases

hi!

what do you think of including CONTENT of the games box into HOL? e.g. 2 disks, 1 manual, 1 reference card, 1 poster
this information is very important for a collector like me - and i know many other collectors who suffer from the same lack of information. right now, it is almost impossible to get to know whether a game came originally with a poster or not. but the HOL could solve this problem. what do you say? if enough people are willing to help, it would be quite easy. i've already asked RCK and he agreed to code it if there is a need.

please post what you think of it!
thanks
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Old 17 September 2003, 22:49   #2
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That sort of info. is currently being inserted in the notes section at the bottom of HOL entries. For example, take a look at Prime Time.

Where available scans of game boxes and their contents also appear. However, being able to include the sort of information collectors are seeking is dependent on the HOL team owning a lot of originals in their entirety (we're working on it, but we're not rich!), or receiving scans of boxes and their contents from contributors like yourself.
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Old 17 September 2003, 22:59   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrBong
That sort of info. is currently being inserted in the notes section at the bottom of HOL entries. For example, take a look at Prime Time. Where available scans are also being made of material included in game boxes.
yes, but if there is this kind of information, why don't make an own section for it? i think it is as important as the conversion hardware or whd cell. and it has nothing to do with the scans. sometimes you know the content and don't have a scan yet. you wouldn't remove the publisher or coder information just because you can read it on a screen shot, would you?

Quote:
Of course, being able to include such information is dependent on the HOL team owning a lot of originals in their entirety (we're working on it, but we're not rich!), or receiving scans of boxes and their contents from contributors like yourself.
the same goes for scans and other information. so where is the point? i would post the contents of all my games. just think of all the people scanning their boxes. they can all provide the hol with info. its even easier than scanning!
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Old 17 September 2003, 23:23   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mache
yes, but if there is this kind of information, why don't make an own section for it? i think it is as important as the conversion hardware or whd cell. and it has nothing to do with the scans. sometimes you know the content and don't have a scan yet. you wouldn't remove the publisher or coder information just because you can read it on a screen shot, would you?

the same goes for scans and other information. so where is the point? i would post the contents of all my games. just think of all the people scanning their boxes. they can all provide the hol with info. its even easier than scanning!
I think the point is that if we are aware of the packaging contents, we include this in the Notes field. It's hard to know explicitly without owning a copy (and even owning a copy doesn't mean you have all contents complete). When the info is available, I add it to the Notes field, but if I am unsure if the contents list is 100%, I pass on listing it because it might give the impression that it's a definitive listing of the contents. And there are entries in HOL that list contents without scans. I listed the contents with my scans for Prime Time because my copy of the game was shrink-wrapped, so I must assume it was complete.

As for unique cells representing package contents, how should this be done? An empty field like Notes? If so, the Notes field should suffice. I can't imagine any other means of displaying this info.
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Old 17 September 2003, 23:42   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Twistin'Ghost
I think the point is that if we are aware of the packaging contents, we include this in the Notes field. It's hard to know explicitly without owning a copy (and even owning a copy doesn't mean you have all contents complete). When the info is available, I add it to the Notes field, but if I am unsure if the contents list is 100%, I pass on listing it because it might give the impression that it's a definitive listing of the contents. And there are entries in HOL that list contents without scans. I listed the contents with my scans for Prime Time because my copy of the game was shrink-wrapped, so I must assume it was complete.

As for unique cells representing package contents, how should this be done? An empty field like Notes? If so, the Notes field should suffice. I can't imagine any other means of displaying this info.
yes, the info will not always be complete or correct, that is true. but the same goes for all entries. a database such as the hol is always under development. there are still lots of empty fields or wrong entries, especially publishers/developers. and we all try to get the database more and more complete and correct.

and the problem we talk about - the "unsureness" - actually IS the reason to include this information! if everybody knows everything, there would be no need for a database.

no, i don't see it as a notes field. a notes field should contain info that doesn't fit anywhere else, e.g. that giana sisters had been put from shelves due to legal issues. but every game had been sold in a box, so there is always a content!

a possible way could be a simple field where you put all the contens as string. or a simple matrix with disks, manual, poster etc. and a "X" if it was included. just an idea.

sorry, i am a little bit confused that nobody seems to be in favour of this option. i would have loved it and i think that it is a good idea. but if no one here is interested, i won't bother and shut up...
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Old 18 September 2003, 09:15   #6
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I think this information would be great to have, but once again I feel that this really belongs to another project. HOL is not about preservation, but CAPS is.

One of the problems for the CAPS team is to determine if a set of box scans is complete or not. If box owners could supply information about what's included in the boxes, they would not have to wait for the actual scans.

Of course this is up to the CAPS team to decide, but maybe they could create a special upload area for text files or something similiar.
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Old 18 September 2003, 09:30   #7
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Well we do this already - in a fashion. The gameinfo.xml shows all that came with a game (assuming we know about it).

Maybe we could present this information in a more accessible, and less segmented way however. That I do agree. We did plan to do a web interface to the gameinfo.xml's at some point, so you could see all the info we have on a game.

As it happens, when put a scan package out, we normally get feedback on it about what is missing etc. For example, our very own Mache here contributed a map that was missing from the Wizard Warz release.

The problem is as I see it, that we are only going to want to record this information for the games that we have scanned - i.e. we can verify the information because we can see it - this in turn means the information will be populated very slowly.
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Old 18 September 2003, 10:38   #8
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@Walker

hmm, i don't understand why it belongs to a different project. so why do scans belong to the hol? they are also included in caps. and caps game info has most information about publisher, year and so on. does the existence of caps mean that there is no need for the hol?

imagine the following scenario:
another collector offers me a game. this game is unknown to me. i search for the game on hol. i can see the cover, see if there were different versions (e.g. english and german) and see what the contents of the game are. so i know if something is missing from the game i wanna buy.

perhaps only my point of view, but i think that a database should contain as much info as possible!
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Old 18 September 2003, 12:15   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mache
does the existence of caps mean that there is no need for the hol?
Well there is a provocative statement if ever there was one.

My opinion: Obviously not. CAPS preserves the games, and was never meant to be a games database. Also, we are unlikely to be able to get all the games that HOL describes. So without HOL, people may not know it existed as a commercial title!

Of course, I can only keep on living if I know that we will find all the games, so don't dwell on that, m'kay?

The games list on our site was purely to show what we have, including any information that might be needed distinguish it from other games or versions. Some examples:

Pinball Fantasies OCS & AGA
Barbarian (two different games by Palace and Psygnosis)
Pirates, versions v832.02 and v832.04
Loom, German or English languages
Lemmings and Batman, one disk version or two disk version
Lost Patrol, region locked, PAL and NTSC versions
Populous from US and EU regions are different
Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis, retail or the bugfixed budget version
Kid Gloves, coverdisk or retail

It is not really meant to provide information about the games. Just what is different about the releases.

So I guess thinking along these lines, showing what was in the box does not really make sense. I was thinking about the possibility of putting the gameinfo.xml's online for reference about the releases themselves really, which by side effect would give you the info you wanted.
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Old 18 September 2003, 12:35   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mache
@Walker

hmm, i don't understand why it belongs to a different project. so why do scans belong to the hol? they are also included in caps. and caps game info has most information about publisher, year and so on. does the existence of caps mean that there is no need for the hol?

imagine the following scenario:
another collector offers me a game. this game is unknown to me. i search for the game on hol. i can see the cover, see if there were different versions (e.g. english and german) and see what the contents of the game are. so i know if something is missing from the game i wanna buy.

perhaps only my point of view, but i think that a database should contain as much info as possible!
I can follow your point, but I also think that HOL-Team should do the things in their own "way". Putting in to many features from the start will kill the project. I think that some of these suggestion could wait for later. These guy spend a lot of time in this project, so please be patient maybe some day they would have the time to bring in new features to HOL.

Okay I might be wrong but....
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Old 18 September 2003, 13:25   #11
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@fiath
no provocation! i just wanted to show that there is a difference between caps and hol, although they might provide partly the same information. the only point i wanted to make clear: just because it is featured in caps, it doesn't mean it should not be in hol. i don't see a difference between box scans (hol and caps) and box content (caps only).

@dizzy
you are right, no need to hurry! but i don't think it is a matter of time. i asked rck because i thought (and still think!) that it is a good idea. he agreed and said he could code it. filling these fields actually is a time-consuming task. but as with any other field, they can remain empty until they are filled someday. gathering the information could be done by contributors, so it is not that much of work for hol. currently a game has 30 fields, so why should 31 be a problem?
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Old 18 September 2003, 13:39   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mache
@Walker

hmm, i don't understand why it belongs to a different project. so why do scans belong to the hol? they are also included in caps. and caps game info has most information about publisher, year and so on. does the existence of caps mean that there is no need for the hol?
Including box scans is a way of providing information about different releases of a game. It's also something that we can include without too much work and waste of disk space. Contributors would surely think twice before they scan a 50 page manual, but scanning the box and disk is a different thing.

HOL is meant to be a database focused on game information, whilst CAPS wants to preserve everything from the actual games to registration cards. I have sent some scans of manuals and other stuff to CAPS myself, and these scans are not in HOL.
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Old 18 September 2003, 13:55   #13
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hi walker!

hmm, perhaps is my english not good enough to explain what i think. or i misinterpret your statements so i will try to comment on your post.

Quote:
Originally posted by Walker
Including box scans is a way of providing information about different releases of a game.
that's it. providing information about a game and/or different releases of a game. any information is useful, being it scans or publisher info or (you guessed it ) content.

Quote:
It's also something that we can include without too much work and waste of disk space.
does a field with content eat up more disk space than a scan?

Quote:
Contributors would surely think twice before they scan a 50 page manual, but scanning the box and disk is a different thing.
they would also think twice if they had to scan their box, if taking a look into the box and writing "2 Disks, 1 Manual, 1 Warranty Card" is so much easier.

Quote:
HOL is meant to be a database focused on game information, whilst CAPS wants to preserve everything from the actual games to registration cards. I have sent some scans of manuals and other stuff to CAPS myself, and these scans are not in HOL.
sure, there is a difference between hol and caps, obviously. but i still think that information about a games content has to do with a database focused on game information, rather than a preservation society.

i hope this makes it clearer what i am actually talking about... ???
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Old 18 September 2003, 16:47   #14
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This site must be what you looking for... only Sierra games but very usefull for collectors ( pc only but sierras games where the same on amiga...)

http://www.vintage-sierra.com/
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Old 19 September 2003, 08:59   #15
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Quote:
that's it. providing information about a game and/or different releases of a game. any information is useful, being it scans or publisher info or (you guessed it ) content.
IMO that kind of info is not about the game, it's about the box. If you're looking for info about a game, you don't care much if there was a registration card or a beer plate in the box.

Quote:
does a field with content eat up more disk space than a scan?
You asked why we have box scans in HOL. My point was that we include box scans because they provide lots of info about releases, but we don't include complete manual scans or scans from the side/top/bottom of a box because that would give us too much work and disk space usage. CAPS has to do it, because they deal with preservation. That's why I think that box content information belongs to CAPS and not HOL. Sure, we could add a text field with this information, but we have to put a stop somewhere.

Quote:
they would also think twice if they had to scan their box, if taking a look into the box and writing "2 Disks, 1 Manual, 1 Warranty Card" is so much easier.
I don't get your point here. Providing box scans and providing info about box content are two completely different things. HOL wants box scans, period. CAPS needs box scans AND box content to verify that their releases are complete.
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Old 19 September 2003, 09:52   #16
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@Dizzy

yes, that's what i meant. a simple field with some entries.

Quote:
Originally posted by Walker
IMO that kind of info is not about the game, it's about the box. If you're looking for info about a game, you don't care much if there was a registration card or a beer plate in the box.
that's true. if you are only looking for information about the game itself.

Quote:
You asked why we have box scans in HOL. My point was that we include box scans because they provide lots of info about releases, but we don't include complete manual scans or scans from the side/top/bottom of a box because that would give us too much work and disk space usage. CAPS has to do it, because they deal with preservation. That's why I think that box content information belongs to CAPS and not HOL. Sure, we could add a text field with this information, but we have to put a stop somewhere.
it is ok to put a stop somewhere and this is up to de hol, of course. but it would have been better if someone said that before, so i didn't have to post so much text
and be honest: there is hardly any information on the front cover of a game, perhaps title and publisher (which is redundant beacuse of the fields), so at least the front cover is pure viewing pleasure, not information!

Quote:
I don't get your point here. Providing box scans and providing info about box content are two completely different things. HOL wants box scans, period. CAPS needs box scans AND box content to verify that their releases are complete.
see above, it's your decision. but the next time when i come up with an idea, just tell me that you don't want it, and don't try to find arguements against it.

and don't add it into hol in half a year or so and praise it as a new and cool invention because i still think that it is something new, because there is no resource on the internet which has this kind of information. what a pity!

perhaps i should build another site?
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Old 19 September 2003, 10:33   #17
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Quote:
and be honest: there is hardly any information on the front cover of a game, perhaps title and publisher (which is redundant beacuse of the fields), so at least the front cover is pure viewing pleasure, not information!
Different boxes also tell us that there were different publishers in different parts of the world, what kind of budget releases that are available, hardware requirements etc.

Quote:
see above, it's your decision. but the next time when i come up with an idea, just tell me that you don't want it, and don't try to find arguements against it.
How can I tell that I don't want it if I don't have any arguments...? In my first post, the first line reads "I think this information would be great to have...". I still think it's a great idea.

Quote:
and don't add it into hol in half a year or so and praise it as a new and cool invention because i still think that it is something new, because there is no resource on the internet which has this kind of information. what a pity!

perhaps i should build another site?
Why not? I will be a frequent visitor!
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Old 19 September 2003, 13:15   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mache

perhaps i should build another site?
Maybe we can put this info as an optional field in our DB - if you are happy to maintain it.

I will have to ask the guys though. No promises.
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Old 19 September 2003, 23:40   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mache
yes, but if there is this kind of information, why don't make an own section for it? i think it is as important as the conversion hardware or whd cell. and it has nothing to do with the scans. sometimes you know the content and don't have a scan yet. you wouldn't remove the publisher or coder information just because you can read it on a screen shot, would you?
I didn't say it had anything to do with the scans! I just said that where available, we include scans of the game contents. I'm sure collectors and games players alike wouldn't mind seeing what the game contents look like.

As for making a dedicated section for game contents, it would simply be impractical. We could not make a list that could cover every possibility outside the items commonly found within game contents (that is, disks, manuals, reference card, warranty card, poster, map). For example, I have games which include uncommon items such as surgical gloves, videotapes, novels, badges, scratch 'n' sniff cards etc. Also, I doubt if people would care if a warranty card was included with a game.

It would be better to just simply list the game contents, and we already do that in the Notes section. Making a dedicated notes section for game contents would simply involve too much work because we have no easy way of telling which game already has the info. and then no easy way of being able to extract it from the database.

Quote:
the same goes for scans and other information. so where is the point? i would post the contents of all my games. just think of all the people scanning their boxes. they can all provide the hol with info. its even easier than scanning!
The point is that it's easier for us to verify whether scans (boxes, disks etc.) and other types of info. are complete. However, unless HOL members or contributors like you own brand new games, we cannot be 100% sure if the contents of a game are complete. Additionally, there is the problem that game contents may differ between releases (for example, UK and US releases).

If you or others want to submit details of game contents then we are only happy to include them in the Notes section. However, there will not be a dedicated section for game contents in the forseeable future, unless the HOL team discusses it and the majority decide that it's a good idea. As you can see, there are other HOL team members who have said that they are not in favour of your idea at the moment. We can't please all the people all of the time. If we tried to please everyone, then we would have an enormous amount of extra work and no life outside of our day jobs.
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Old 20 September 2003, 11:05   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrBong
...I'm sure collectors and games players alike wouldn't mind seeing what the game contents look like...Also, I doubt if people would care if a warranty card was included with a game.
i disagree. i would not buy a game if i knew that it lacks something, even if it's just a warranty card. so do most other collectors i know.

Quote:
It would be better to just simply list the game contents, and we already do that in the Notes section.
sorry, but walker said this sort of info has nothing to do with hol, but with caps

Quote:
...Additionally, there is the problem that game contents may differ between releases (for example, UK and US releases).
that is another reason for such a database. i try to collect all versions of a game and i need to know what was included in different countries.

Quote:
If you or others want to submit details of game contents then we are only happy to include them in the Notes section. However, there will not be a dedicated section for game contents in the forseeable future, unless the HOL team discusses it and the majority decide that it's a good idea. As you can see, there are other HOL team members who have said that they are not in favour of your idea at the moment. We can't please all the people all of the time. If we tried to please everyone, then we would have an enormous amount of extra work and no life outside of our day jobs.
i understand that the hol-team does a lot of work and i am thankful for that, because i visit the hol every day.

but i still feel that there is a need for that kind of info, so i am thinking about some ways to get it done. perhaps the caps-team is interested in such an expanded section.

otherwise, i won't hesitate to build a database on my own.
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