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Old 02 June 2020, 16:05   #181
th4t1guy
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This is why we can't have nice things.
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Old 02 June 2020, 16:10   #182
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The entire “controversy” is around the legal concept of “Lost Revenue.” I’ll capitalize it for the sake of clarity. This is what a Court of Law would need to have proven - that the aggrieved party, in this case, the license holder(s), suffered Lost Revenue by having their software either sold by a third party with no previous agreement as to any compensation received OR, by having it given away by a third party (gratis) with no compensation offered the license holder.

Does Apollo meet the definition? Yes, to both criteria. It doesn’t really matter a Court of Law found Apollo was selling Coffin OS as part of the sale of their hardware OR if they were giving it away for free. If the license holder isn’t being compensated, they have suffered Lost Revenue.

Caveats. Yes, there are always caveats:

Has the license holder contacted the offending party and issued a “Cease and Desist” request, preferably through a lawyer? To the best of my knowledge, only one license holder has contacted Apollo to cease and desist from carrying his software, namely, the license holder for Fusion and PCx. Apollo removed these from their Coffin OS distro back in 2018, apparently to the satisfaction of the license holder.

If we point the finger at Apollo, we have 3 fingers pointing right back at us. It isn’t just a matter of a few odd kickstarts or some old version of the Amiga OS. You have to apply the moral and ethical reason for pointing the finger at Apollo to EVERYONE providing licensed software (*any* licensed software, no matter how old) or none at all.

Personally, it isn’t so much an issue that Apollo doesn’t respond to legal inquiries. The problem is that Apollo doesn’t response to *ANY* inquiries, inquiries such as, “Uh…do you folks actually sell a product I can purchase? Because I swear the only people I know who have Apollo hardware (“Vampire”) either have demo units or hardware they picked up at some Amiga convention in the past few years. I don’t know anyone who actually placed an order online and received a unit they paid for. Hello? HELLO? Is there anybody there? Does anybody actually WORK at Apollo?”

I have a novel solution for this issue:

How about we let the license holders put their big-girl panties on, such as the legal license holder for OS 3.9, and let THEM fight their own battles, hmm? So far, to the best of my knowledge, the legal license holder for OS 3.9 hasn’t said diddly-squat to Apollo. If they had, I’m certain the entire Amiga community would have heard about it by now. As it stands, all we have is one sorry little news item published back in 2018 which has been reposted here ad nauseam - even by me - which has no legal standing what so ever.

I find myself in agreement, therefore, with DamienD: All of us, EAB members and moderators, find ourselves in an incredibly large glasshouse. The biggest, in fact, in the world when it comes to providing Amiga Software, gratis, regardless of its age. We love to bandy-about numbers like “C’mon…it’s 20 years old!” Well, OS 3.9 is also 20 years old, or thereabouts. So let’s recognize we all live in that big glasshouse and put down the stones and move on, shall we?
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Old 02 June 2020, 16:10   #183
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Originally Posted by Hewitson View Post
As has MUI, but we all know what happened when I tried to say that in the MUI Keygen thread.

Maybe the Amiga is becoming too much of a "goody two shoes" computer for me. Used to be everyone had boxes full of pirated disks, now you download a copy of a 20 year old OS and you're Satan himself.
Hewitson; we all know your stance regarding software... copy / pirate / free distribution for all. You've said it enough times in multiple threads across EAB.

You are not a responsible adult in these terms... I suggest that you don't post any further in this thread, given your odd logic related to any Amiga software.

You are adding nothing of value; and luckily not many people have your warped view.
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Old 02 June 2020, 16:25   #184
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Originally Posted by Weaselrama View Post
Personally, it isn’t so much an issue that Apollo doesn’t respond to legal inquiries. The problem is that Apollo doesn’t response to *ANY* inquiries, inquiries such as, “Uh…do you folks actually sell a product I can purchase? Because I swear the only people I know who have Apollo hardware (“Vampire”) either have demo units or hardware they picked up at some Amiga convention in the past few years. I don’t know anyone who actually placed an order online and received a unit they paid for. Hello? HELLO? Is there anybody there? Does anybody actually WORK at Apollo?”
I was looking forward to getting a V1200...
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Old 02 June 2020, 16:35   #185
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I don’t know anyone who actually placed an order online and received a unit they paid for.
I've got a V600, it's very nice. I don't run Coffin on it though, as I buy all my software. Even MUI.

I don't understand the rabidly anti-Vampire attitudes on display here. It's just hardware. Run on it what you like. You don't need to run CoffinOS if its legally dubious nature offends you, just like you needn't run the legally-dubious 3.1.4 (which has an actual court case against its "owner" in Real Life, not just some posts on a forum).
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Old 02 June 2020, 16:38   #186
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Originally Posted by DamienD View Post
You can saw that you don't understand the "EAB FTP Server" cleanup... why don't you read through this exact thread again then, it's very obvious.

Numerous people are stating that EAB is as bad as the Apollo team; this is simply not true.
I'm afraid we're talking past each other

My point is that nobody asked fort the FTP scrub. Comments about illegal content are more about pointing out logical discrepancies.

I guess the final answer is that the mods want this place to be clear of illegal content, and that is just fine. I thought it was much worse, like someone uploading something of Coffin OS on the FTP thus sparking controversy and the cleanup.

But then, what is with the Coffin/Apollo/Vampire rant if they have nothing to do with the EAB content?
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Old 02 June 2020, 16:48   #187
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My point is that nobody asked fort the FTP scrub. Comments about illegal content are more about pointing out logical discrepancies.

I guess the final answer is that the mods want this place to be clear of illegal content, and that is just fine. I thought it was much worse, like someone uploading something of Coffin OS on the FTP thus sparking controversy and the cleanup.
Yes, as I said... being a responsible / ethical forum; we are cleaning up this mess... therefore the "EAB FTP Server" is offline until further notice; so that we can go through and make sure we stick by our rules; i.e. that there is no dubious content being hosted.

Could take a few weeks, or maybe a few months...

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But then, what is with the Coffin/Apollo/Vampire rant if they have nothing to do with the EAB content?
Oh man, do I have to explain it again to you? Seriously...

I've already told you where to read and how this whole thing kicked off: http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=...&postcount=174

Don't ask me again as you won't get any response.

I have better things to do than constantly repeat myself...

Last edited by DamienD; 02 June 2020 at 16:55.
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Old 02 June 2020, 16:56   #188
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Interesting discussion. I am no friend of CoffinOS, but it brought back MANY Amiga users who are happy now, hopefully buying new software which is STILL AVAILABLE.

And if CoffinOS is so illegal, what is with all the games and tools shared here on EAB? We should calm down, there is NO WINNER IN THIS DISCUSSION, just everyone will lose.
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Old 02 June 2020, 17:02   #189
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And if CoffinOS is so illegal, what is with all the games and tools shared here on EAB?
You should read the complete thread before making comments... it has been explained numerous times now; and this really is the last time that I repeat it!!!

The Apollo team are a commercial entity in business; and selling hardware bundled with still for sale software i.e. Amiga OS 3.9; amongst other stuff.

...not to mention making it available on their website / forum, one example: http://apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=1&note=22597

EAB is not selling anything or making money. We do not knowingly host or link to any commercial / still sold games or software on any resource.

People have brought up that there were KS ROMs in compilations hosted on the "EAB File Server". This was totally without our knowledge; and completely against the rules of this forum.

As a consequence the "EAB File Server" is now offline and we as a resposible / ethical forum will be cleaning this up.

Last edited by DamienD; 02 June 2020 at 17:20.
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Old 02 June 2020, 17:14   #190
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Old 02 June 2020, 17:16   #191
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Originally Posted by DamienD View Post
Oh man, do I have to explain it again to you? Seriously...

I've already told you where to read and how this whole thing kicked off: http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=...&postcount=174

Don't ask me again as you won't get any response.

I have better things to do than constantly repeat myself...
I'm truly sorry if I'm bothering you, but you keep pointing me to WHAT happened, and I have already said that I have read everything. I'm curious as to WHY it happened? Why would you or anybody be bothered with how someone else is conducting their business? If it cuts into your business, then, sure, go ahead and sue them, but it doesn't seem to be the case. So who cares about their business...

You are, of course, not obliged to reply, and anyone is welcome to chime in as I'm just trying to get the sense of it all.

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selling hardware bundled with still for sale software i.e. Amiga OS 3.9;
This doesn't seem to be true, as I cannot find any legal way to purchase OS 3.9 at the moment.
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Old 02 June 2020, 17:16   #192
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Originally Posted by DamienD View Post
The Apollo team are are a commercial entity in business; and selling hardware bundled with still for sale software i.e. Amiga OS 3.9; amongst other stuff.

...not to mention making it available on their website / forum, one example: http://apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=1&note=22597

EAB is not selling anything or making money. We do not host / link to any commercial / still sold games or software on any resource.

I'm sorry, Damien, but that is NOT how a Court of Law would see it. As I wrote above:

"The entire “controversy” is around the legal concept of “Lost Revenue.” I’ll capitalize it for the sake of clarity. This is what a Court of Law would need to have proven - that the aggrieved party, in this case, the license holder(s), suffered Lost Revenue by having their software either sold by a third party with no previous agreement as to any compensation received OR, by having it given away by a third party (gratis) with no compensation offered the license holder.

Does Apollo meet the definition? Yes, to both criteria. It doesn’t really matter a Court of Law found Apollo was selling Coffin OS as part of the sale of their hardware OR if they were giving it away for free. If the license holder isn’t being compensated, they have suffered Lost Revenue.

Caveats. Yes, there are always caveats:

Has the license holder contacted the offending party and issued a “Cease and Desist” request, preferably through a lawyer? To the best of my knowledge, only one license holder has contacted Apollo to cease and desist from carrying his software, namely, the license holder for Fusion and PCx. Apollo removed these from their Coffin OS distro back in 2018, apparently to the satisfaction of the license holder.

If we point the finger at Apollo, we have 3 fingers pointing right back at us. It isn’t just a matter of a few odd kickstarts or some old version of the Amiga OS. You have to apply the moral and ethical reason for pointing the finger at Apollo to EVERYONE providing licensed software (*any* licensed software, no matter how old) or none at all."

There is NO DIFFERENCE between demanding payment or providing the software gratis. NONE.

HOWEVER, I added -

"I have a novel solution for this issue:

How about we let the license holders put their big-girl panties on, such as the legal license holder for OS 3.9, and let THEM fight their own battles, hmm? So far, to the best of my knowledge, the legal license holder for OS 3.9 hasn’t said diddly-squat to Apollo. If they had, I’m certain the entire Amiga community would have heard about it by now. As it stands, all we have is one sorry little news item published back in 2018 which has been reposted here ad nauseam - even by me - which has no legal standing what so ever.

I find myself in agreement, therefore, with DamienD: All of us, EAB members and moderators, find ourselves in an incredibly large glasshouse. The biggest, in fact, in the world when it comes to providing Amiga Software, gratis, regardless of its age. We love to bandy-about numbers like “C’mon…it’s 20 years old!” Well, OS 3.9 is also 20 years old, or thereabouts. So let’s recognize we all live in that big glasshouse and put down the stones and move on, shall we?"
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Old 02 June 2020, 17:18   #193
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The Apollo team are are a commercial entity in business; and selling hardware bundled with still for sale software .
No, they're not selling hardware bundled with any software beyond a licenced kickstart image.

They are not removing links on their forum to a place where paid-for software can be obtained illegally. Which isn't the same thing, and stop pretending it is. FFS, type "amiga roms" into a search engine of your choice and you'll get links to places where software can be downloaded without buying it, but I don't see anyone ranting about Google.

Should the Vampire team remove the links? Yes. Does it mean it's "bundled"? No.
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Old 02 June 2020, 17:19   #194
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You and other members are stating that EAB is just as bad as the Apollo team... totally different league, as has been explained many times throughout this thread.
You expressed your personal feelings - nothing fact based.

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Also, all you members slinging mud at EAB.
Nah, we just hold a mirror up to your face.

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Originally Posted by DamienD View Post
What the hell are you doing on this forum then???
Nothing is perfect, but the EAB is one of the best Amiga Boards - simple as that.

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You know where door is; I suggest you use it.
Why should I leave? Because I didn't agree with you?

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The Apollo team need to the same as EAB; and as what any other ethical / commercial company would.
So if I understand you correctly thezone and the FTP is now also closed?
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Old 02 June 2020, 17:28   #195
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This doesn't seem to be true, as I cannot find any legal way to purchase OS 3.9 at the moment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Penguin View Post
No, they're not selling hardware bundled with any software beyond a licenced kickstart image.

They are not removing links on their forum to a place where paid-for software can be obtained illegally. Which isn't the same thing, and stop pretending it is. FFS, type "amiga roms" into a search engine of your choice and you'll get links to places where software can be downloaded without buying it, but I don't see anyone ranting about Google.

Should the Vampire team remove the links? Yes. Does it mean it's "bundled"? No.
Thomas Richter's 2 x posts that I totally agree with:

... http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=...&postcount=103
... http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=1404334&postcount=155
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Old 02 June 2020, 17:31   #196
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You expressed your personal feelings - nothing fact based.
Oh right, not facts at all in this thread... you're kidding right?

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Nah, we just hold a mirror up to your face.
You're a funny guy; how so?

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Originally Posted by AMike View Post
Nothing is perfect, but the EAB is one of the best Amiga Boards - simple as that.

Why should I leave? Because I didn't agree with you?
You come here and join this discussion with the sole purpose to slag off EAB, say all sorts of rubbish i.e. that we are as bad as the Apollo team... and yet you think that you're still welcome afterwards?

Come on mate, think about your actions!!! It will have repercussions.

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So if I understand you correctly thezone and the FTP is now also closed?
FTP is now offline as explained.

The Zone! totally abides by the rules so remains open: Workbench disks, Kickstart ROMs & software or music files still supported/for sale
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Old 02 June 2020, 17:31   #197
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moreover it is not normal to sell a resumed commodore bone just by changing the copyright and 2 or 3 things to those who already have ks3.1 (a troll topic )
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Old 02 June 2020, 17:34   #198
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A lot of good points have been made. One thought I would like to add about EAB's Zone and old kickrom files stored there:

The devs working on OS3.1.4 and 3.2 are doing their work for free. How does it hurt them economically if an older version of the same OS is made available illegally?

Now how is the situation for a game developer who wants to market a new commercial game and has to face the competition of thousands of illegally provided games?

Perhaps it would indeed be best to leave it to the copyright proprietors to defend their supposed rights against the alleged infringers and to not fight surrogate wars which are clearly fueled by some irrational dislike of the Vampire-project.
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Old 02 June 2020, 17:40   #199
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A lot of good points have been made. One thought I would like to add about EAB's Zone and old kickrom files stored there
Stop talking rubbish as per usual...

Show me exactly where then???

Before you start throwing stones at EAB; I think you should clean up your own act i.e. remove illegal software from on your own official site and stop making this available / giving away a hacked version of Amiga OS 3.9.
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Old 02 June 2020, 17:42   #200
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Oh right, not facts at all in this thread... you're kidding right?
Yeap, there are facts - but you keep ignoring them. Legally is EAB in the same situation as CoffinOS. Weaselrama explained the situation at a very detail - you ignored it. The rest of your "facts" are personal feelings - nothing else. You are not the EAB - EAB are the people and their knowledge which makes it to a great place. So I have no bad feelings against the board itself, nor the FTP, it's more the logical discrepancies in juding others.

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The Zone! totally abides by the rules so remains open:[/URL]
Your rules are worthless in the real world - check again the name of the topic - legality.

Last edited by AMike; 02 June 2020 at 17:50.
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