18 July 2020, 09:19 | #1 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Poland
Posts: 1,301
|
Console sprite hardware/animation vs Amiga/other home computers
*********************************************************
Mod note: Due to this thread being created from moved posts from the Metro Siege thread and then being merged with some other posts, a few posts may seem misplaced to the reader. Be sure to read post #8 first: http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?...75#post1414575 ********************************************************** @Roondar Where did You get that SF2 needs 4.3MB since it could fit on 3 floppy disks? Quote from Psygore for WHDLoad version: Quote:
Last edited by lilalurl; 20 July 2020 at 23:22. |
|
18 July 2020, 09:58 | #2 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 3,410
|
Quote:
The uncracked A500 version I saw came on five disks. 880*5=4.400KB. I decided to not use the 6 disk AGA version as the benchmark, even though it would've been a better fit to the SNES as I didn't want to come across as trying to make the game as big as possible. Anyway, I don't think this is the place to really discuss this issue (i.e. why console games pretty uniformly are smaller than Amiga/ST games) so I'll stop now |
|
18 July 2020, 10:15 | #3 |
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Poland
Posts: 1,301
|
What 5 or 6 disks? Street Fighter II was originally on 4 disks and could be on 3? Are You sure You not mistake it with Super Street Fighter II: The New Challengers? But SSFII:TNC ROM have 4MB on SNES...
|
18 July 2020, 10:17 | #4 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 3,410
|
Could be, but like I just said I'm not going to post about this any more as I don't think it's on-topic.
The point never was about SFII to begin with (that was just one of my two examples which you've now pointed out was incorrect), it was meant as a general observation. |
18 July 2020, 10:29 | #5 |
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Poland
Posts: 1,301
|
I don't mean to do OT, but it's about that Your observation is wrong. It can have less kilobytes since there is different method for handling data, but for sure difference is not that big that You said.
|
18 July 2020, 10:51 | #6 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 3,410
|
Quote:
Let's please get back to Metro Siege. |
|
18 July 2020, 10:56 | #7 |
Phone Homer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 5150
Posts: 5,773
|
although in general consoles or Arcade games didn't break sprites into small pieces it is interesting Amiga SF2 is shit and takes 4 disks, apparently could fit on 3 but with a backup device for SNES or Mega Drive the game fits on 2 Disks and is nearly Arcade.
There are other console games though that fit on single floppy or only fill half/quarter and are Arcade perfect compared to Amiga, so there is something there that no-one seems to be able to explain. |
18 July 2020, 11:16 | #8 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 3,410
|
Console sprite hardware/animation vs Amiga/other home computers
Over in the Metro Siege thread, I got involved in a rather off-topic discussion about consoles and sprite animation.
Because I think that there is something worth discussing here, I've decided to make a new thread rather than keep filling the Metro Siege one with off-topic stuff. My point in that thread was about how consoles managed to have smaller games (not always, but frequently) than their Amiga/other computer counterparts even though the console versions often showed more animation frames and/or bigger objects. My guess was that Amiga/computer games tended to use complete sprite objects (i.e. one big image per sprite frame), while consoles may make use of partial sprite objects (8x8 tiles to be precise). With that in mind I wonder: was partial/tile animation used in console games? It seems likely to me as console games already break up their sprites into 8x8 tiles when they're stored in memory (for example see here: https://medium.com/@megacatstudios/s...a-e14093f71a33 about 2/3rd of the way down) Does anyone have some insight on this and were there Amiga games did cut up their sprites into smaller sections for animation? Last edited by roondar; 18 July 2020 at 12:36. |
18 July 2020, 11:37 | #9 | |
CaptainM68K-SPS France
|
Quote:
On X68000, SF2' is 4 disks, sized each 1.2mb, and the data files are crunched. |
|
18 July 2020, 13:22 | #10 |
Phone Homer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 5150
Posts: 5,773
|
I think that's only NEO-GEO I can't find any evidence SF2 was like this?
Yes x68000 was arcade perfect but much better hardware but more talking about the size of console Roms - SNES and MD. |
18 July 2020, 14:23 | #11 |
Phone Homer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 5150
Posts: 5,773
|
it doesn't show any sprites being broken down into tiles? only the game backgrounds etc
it's more the other way round if Amiga wanted to replicate console games like Sonic it would have to break the sprite into tiny pieces. Last edited by Retro1234; 18 July 2020 at 14:31. |
18 July 2020, 14:37 | #12 | |||
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 3,410
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
18 July 2020, 14:38 | #13 |
Phone Homer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 5150
Posts: 5,773
|
https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/Doct...me_in_2019.php
Ok this site does say they are split but its more multiples of 8 for 16bit consoles and with backgrounds you could re-use multiple tiles but more characters it didn't save any memory most of the tiles couldn't be used again. unless there's a rip of the graphic data etc with the character map if you want to call it that I see no proof that it saved any frames. Last edited by Retro1234; 18 July 2020 at 14:46. |
18 July 2020, 14:40 | #14 |
Phone Homer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 5150
Posts: 5,773
|
4x4 tiles that could be 32x32 pixels each and can't be mixed and matched size wise.
Static pictures/photos had to displayed in a similar manner it rarely saved any memory if at all the tiles weren't rescued in effect they were just one big sprite. in a way the Amiga had an advantage if could display Sprites/Bobs of different sizes and shapes. see if you can find a sprite sheet for such a console game so we can see. Last edited by Retro1234; 18 July 2020 at 14:45. |
18 July 2020, 14:53 | #15 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 3,410
|
Right, like I said in my opening post of the thread - the question is if it was used this way or not and what that would achieve.
Also: it's not about proving anything, it's about trying to answer the question why console games tend to be smaller. I merely pointed to a possible solution. One that seems to me to be quite reasonable. |
18 July 2020, 14:58 | #16 |
Phone Homer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 5150
Posts: 5,773
|
fair enough, afaik ripping console sprites is usually done by screenshots so if you can find some sprite editor of ripper etc for console could be interesting.
don't some of 8bit emulators let you view the sprites etc ? |
18 July 2020, 15:00 | #17 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 3,410
|
What we'd really want for this is something that shows the internal VRAM memory as well as the sprite lists/object lists that assign the tiles to sprites. It probably exists for most consoles.
|
18 July 2020, 15:02 | #18 |
Phone Homer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 5150
Posts: 5,773
|
I wouldn't be surprised if someone has done it, console game hacking is quite advanced editing maps, graphics etc the info must be out there.
I do have some console pages I download ages ago but not sure there is anything relevant there, ill have a quick flick through later. |
18 July 2020, 17:00 | #19 |
Phone Homer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 5150
Posts: 5,773
|
There is this site from the SF2 hit box thread
https://www.smwcentral.net/?p=viewthread&t=33039 in test service mode or something "There are 4 modes in the Object Test, NORMAL, EDIT, CATCH, and an unlabeled mode I'll refer to as "CATCH2". NORMAL offers the basic animation viewer as well as tile data for each animation frame." edit: theres also this and that but its not clear if it saved any memory i.e frames could be reused etc http://info.sonicretro.org/SCHG_How-...onMapEd/Part_2 https://16bitgamer.canadian-forum.co...raphic-messing Last edited by Retro1234; 18 July 2020 at 17:14. |
18 July 2020, 20:31 | #20 |
Phone Homer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 5150
Posts: 5,773
|
Thinking about it they must reuse the tiles in some games and a game like Street fighter2 large parts of the body are reused.
https://segaretro.org/images/thumb/e.../600px-Tlp.png But Would this have any benefit for a game like Metro City on Amiga? lots of smaller Bobs would probably be slower and what the Metro City team are doing now seems like a better solution, 16*16 tiles etc seem less likely to align for character and would create more files? |
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests) | |
Thread Tools | |
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
DPS Personal Animation Recorder. Hardware Failure. Check Drive. | SantiDarkG | support.Hardware | 2 | 22 November 2018 04:51 |
Hardware Sprite Glitch | Old_Bob | support.WinUAE | 4 | 05 April 2018 23:53 |
Individual computers to quit selling hardware. | whiteb | News | 7 | 20 December 2010 21:46 |
Pong home console machine | Steve | Retrogaming General Discussion | 9 | 07 April 2003 10:11 |
|
|