Discussion about the cost and value of new Amiga games and whether they are overcharged or not!

[dreadnought]

It always amazes me how the retro-scene, with most of us being ol'geezers, can provide much more drama than when we were actually kids

Few loose thoughts on the subject:

-charging the same amount for digital and physical is wrong. But it's also nothing new: sometimes I compare prices on Steam and suchlike vs physical releases and digital can be actually more expensive. It's rather ridiculous.

-comparing new Amiga indies with old commercial games does not really seem fair, completely different kettle of fish. Also comparing them with new PC indies: the volume it's possible to sell there is infinitely bigger.

-charging dearer prices for physical editions is justified, especially in cottage industry such as this one...with the exception of those who take the advantage of how collecting got trendy and profitable, and release some really lame game and charge arm and leg for it. Although there probably is a fine line between some well-meaning enthusiast who just made a mistake of setting a daft price and anoperation geared for squeezing of hefty profits out of collectors with deep pockets.

-you can find examples of such sad extortionism in probably every retro community: if you think it's bad in the Amiga's have a look at some modern Jaguar games or the Gyruss for Intellivision cluster***k.

[Gorf]

I don't quite get it...

If I make a game, compose some music, paint a picture, craft a sculpture or write a book:
it is entirely up to me, what price I am going to charge.
and it is entirely up to others what they are willing to pay.

If I want to sell my physical box even cheaper than any digital download:
again entirely up to me!
Maybe I want people to have a box or I am substituting the physical release or maybe for no reason at all.

Usually there is a sweet spot in regard of price and volume, where you will have the most profit ... if profit is the goal. But since we do not have a normal market and numbers are extremely small and gaining profit won't happen anyways ... the price is just what the creator thinks it should be, and one can buy it or leave it.

If "we" (as in the community) would want to reverse the situation, we could create a fund and/or competition ... something that has been done here already.

Collect 10-20 € from a larger group of people and offer that sum for the next game. As an open/closed competition or as a kickstarter like model or as a bounty...

[Tigerskunk]

Exactly.
If it's too expensive then simply don't buy it. Problem solved.
Or are we having some communist government here dictating what is allowed or not?
If i create a fart app for Amiga OS and sell it for 1000 euro, who wants to stop me?

[DamienD]

Originally Posted by Steril707

Exactly.
If it's too expensive then simply don't buy it. Problem solved.
Or are we having some communist government here dictating what is allowed or not?
If i create a fart app for Amiga OS and sell it for 1000 euro, who wants to stop me?

Nobody is dictating anything.

...but as customers who've purchased these games; we are allowed to voice our opinion if we believe that the price of the digital download is extortionate.

Just as IMHO it's quote poor for a developer to tell people on a forum that we really need to read their text / explanation accompanying a 15 second video, but knowing full well that the only way to do so is by subscribing to their Patreon.

Whether anything or not changes as a result after is another matter; and probably won't.

[vroom6sri]

Regarding this thread title I suppose, after a lot of deliberation, I do consider those example prices reasonable but it would depend on the finished product of course.

No doubt the people involved in the projects invest a lot of their personal time and their respective skills and, if I were in their shoes, I'd consider the prospect of making some money from it a further motivator if my enthusiasm for all the work and the buzz of creation was to start to trail off.

Having said that maybe developing new products on the Amiga these days better suits the old Shareware model so you could try it out in a limited but functional way to help you really make your mind up about whether you want to pay out for the full product or not.

Incidentally, I just got to thinking of inflation and a quick visit to www.bankofengland.co.uk suggests £20 in 1995 is close to £40 now so are these prices actually comparable to 90s prices once inflation is taken into account?

[Tigerskunk]

Originally Posted by DamienD

...but as customers who've purchased these games; we are allowed to voice our opinion if we believe that the price of the digital download is extortionate.

I think I'd prefer it if you just voted with your wallet. If you buy Reshoot R and don't like the game nor its price you are part of the problem you try do describe here, Damien.
Please promise me you don't buy Inviyya (if it ever gets finished... ) if you think it's not worth what I charge for it and then complain here about it...

Originally Posted by DamienD

Nobody is dictating anything.
Just as IMHO it's quote poor for a developer to tell people on a forum that we really need to read their text / explanation accompanying a 15 second video, but knowing full well that the only way to do so is by subscribing to their Patreon.

I personally don't like Patreon (prefer buymeacoffee/beer if I feel like it), but I would not talk bad about people who try to earn some bucks through that service.
Richard is a freelancer, I am not. For me Amiga game coding is only a hobby. For him it's also a way to earn some extra money for him and his family by doing something he loves to do.

I'd never shit on that, but simply vote with my wallet if I feel it's not worth the price.

[DamienD]

Originally Posted by Steril707

but I would not talk bad about people who try to earn some bucks through that service.

Nothing wrong with people using Patreon is they wish... but posting stuff in an internet forum (where they get free marketing / advertising); and then saying we really need to read their text / explanation accompanying a 15 second video, knowing full well that the only way to do so is by subscribing to their Patreon; is a bit off in my book.

This was done at least twice in this thread: RESHOOT PROXIMA III – New game from the RESHOOT R guys

Amiten used to do something similar; i.e. beg people to subscribe to his YouTube videos in many of his posts on EAB... same thing as above really if you think about it.

Originally Posted by Steril707

Please promise me you don't buy Inviyya (if it ever gets finished... ) if you think it's not worth what I charge for it and then complain here about it...

What a silly thing to say Steril707.

...but let me ask you this then; are you going to be charging virtually the same price for both the physical and digital download?

Which is what this whole debate is really about.

[Amigajay]

Originally Posted by vroom6sri

Incidentally, I just got to thinking of inflation and a quick visit to www.bankofengland.co.uk suggests £20 in 1995 is close to £40 now so are these prices actually comparable to 90s prices once inflation is taken into account?

Doesn’t really work with video/computer games, for example some SNES games were £60 in 1992 (close to £120 in todays money) some Switch games now are £50 - only 41.67% of the price in comparison.

If you reverse that, and say a commercial Amiga game was £26 in 1991 (£52 in todays money) in comparison to the above (41.67%), a commercial Amiga game should cost around £10.83 today.

Of course there are a number of factors, one the console market has quadrupled over the last 20 years, two the cost is reduced by not using cartridges. But even taking the latter out and comparing to CD games, the prices of games have still dropped massively.

But i guess some people do feel uncomfortable paying more for a new Amiga game than a new console game when years ago Amiga games used to be less than half the price of console games.

[Tigerskunk]

Originally Posted by DamienD

What a silly thing to say Steril707.

...but let me ask you this then; are you going to be charging virtually the same price for both the physical and digital download?

Which is what this whole debate is really about.

No, I would not. Like I stated a few pages earlier. 10 Euros for download, a trained version (probably done by Ross) for free a few days later, and a boxed version where the price will be dictated by how expensive it will be to create all that shit.

But, and that's the point, I cannot criticize anyone else for doing it differently, since we are living in a free market, and every Amiga gamer or collector is allowed to vote with their wallet.

On the Patreon thing, if you think this is bad practice, I'd think you should simply install a new forum rule not allowing this kind of thing if you think it's bad.

(btw: I think you are doing a tremendous job here on EAB, Damien. Hopefully we might meet on Amiga35 this year and drink some beers )

[BippyM]

For me there are the following issues:

• Price of the digital downloads is not really reasonable if you ask me. Again this is my personal opinion, and I am more than allowed to have an opinion, and to air that opinion in public. Just like I do when I go to the cinema and a coke is 5quid, yet I can buy a bottle for 1.50 in a normal shop.
• The fact the developer doesn't like other people having an opinion and airing it, then when it doesn't go his way he thinks crying to the boss will make a difference. This is a free, public forum, and every member is entitled to their own opinion, and is entitled to air that opinion. Does Sony go running to Twitter/FB bosses etc when their product is slagged off during production???? nope, didn't think so!! He needs to grow some thicker skin!
• The way the developer thinks it is okay to post a ridiculously short video, showing his game running on a real amiga, then says if anyone wants to know why it is important they have to go to his patreon and support him... What utter bollox.. Just narrate the fucking video and give your patreons something actually worth their money, and not something so ridiculous as to why it is important to run on a real Amiga.. Good lord, it's a fucking Amiga game, of course it needs to run on the real deal!!!!
• The fact there are excuses to "Justify" the ridiculous digital download cost.. What was it "Publisher/Distributor deals with all taxes".. Is he really going to sell THAT many copies in each country to actually touch any minimum tax thresholds??? Come on.. It's an Amiga, not PS4/Xbox/Switch/Steam etc.. He will never sell that many copies, especially at $30.. He stands to lose money with it being pirated!
• I don't have an issue with the boxed editions, they cost money to produce, and the price seems fair after seeing the costs involved... I don't for a millisecond believe digital overheads are anywhere near to those of a physical copy..
• Using his own publication to review his own game highly, and then down review other games. This is not subjective, and stinks. He clearly feels threatened or has no confidence in his product.
• Comparing any modern title with titles from the 90's is perfectly relevant when the seller is asking for payment. Take that Puzznic clone for example. Why can I not compare it to Puzznic?? They're asking for a considerable amount of money for a mediocre, barely PD quality clone.. Again I am perfectly entitled to my opinion, and I am perfectly entitled to share that opinion. If the developers don't like it then... Well tough!

I appreciate that feelings and opinions run high on this subject, but for me it isn't just cut and dry, it isn't just about pricing and what I think is good value for money. It is also about the bad practices of a developer, who clearly feels threatened and doesn't have confidence in his own product. Should the game released be outstanding, should it destroy the games of yesteryear, should it stand head and shoulders above the competition, then.. Well he has absolutely nothing to worry about does he, in which case he needs to just crack on with his game, stop whining when something negative or challenging is said and prove the neysayers wrong, because frankly this has been rumbling for around 2-3 months now, and I am sick of it, and bored of it.

I have absolutely no personal grievance with any member of this forum, and Richard/buzzybee falls into that same category. I look at it from a non objective perspective because I wont play this game, I haven't played any other newer games, and I probably wont. I will however say what I see without those rose tinted, blinkered goggles a lot of other amiga enthusiasts wear.. I am sorry, but that is how it is!!

If as a user you want to part with your money, feel free. Go ahead. If you don't then well don't.

[donnie]

Both mathic and rotator looks like poor games.

But professional grade games like worthy or power glove. Ill gladly put in 40 euros for physical release. If pixel glass or lazycow can make a buck, im happy.

[BippyM]

Originally Posted by donnie

Both mathic and rotator looks like poor games.

But professional grade games like worthy or power glove. Ill gladly put in 40 euros for physical release. If pixel glass or lazycow can make a buck, im happy.

I'm happy for any developer to make a buck, but when a developer is trying to silence some critics because what they say they don't like.. Well the question has to be asked doesn't it... Is this game as good as he believes? Does he have confidence in his own product? Does he really believe he's priced it accurately? The only loser will be the developer, because if it doesn't stand up to that price point in quality there maytbe some upset customers!

[Overmann]

People can charge what they want for the product they make. If it's too high people won't buy it. They can then choose to lower the price or sell their next product cheaper.

I think it's fantastic tht people are taking the time to make new games for the amiga, and I think the quality has really gone up in recent years. I am more then a little stunned by how this discussion has been going. This kind of angry namecalling and childishness was what drove me from amiga.org back in the day.

If you think a thing is too expensive then just don't guy it. This is a small enough hobby as it is. Why are you calling out people on a public forum? Everyone making and selling stuff for the amiga are just trying to contribute. Noone is scheeming to get rich off of amiga-users' gullability!

Originally Posted by BippyM

I'm happy for any developer to make a buck, but when a developer is trying to silence some critics because what they say they don't like.. Well the question has to be asked doesn't it... Is this game as good as he believes? Does he have confidence in his own product? Does he really believe he's priced it accurately? The only loser will be the developer, because if it doesn't stand up to that price point in quality there maytbe some upset customers!

Then let people get upset..

[BippyM]

Originally Posted by Overmann

People can charge what they want for the product they make. If it's too high people won't buy it. They can then choose to lower the price or sell their next product cheaper.

I think it's fantastic tht people are taking the time to make new games for the amiga, and I think the quality has really gone up in recent years. I am more then a little stunned by how this discussion has been going. This kind of angry namecalling and childishness was what drove me from amiga.org back in the day.

If you think a thing is too expensive then just don't guy it. This is a small enough hobby as it is. Why are you calling out people on a public forum? Everyone making and selling stuff for the amiga are just trying to contribute. Noone is scheeming to get rich off of amiga-users' gullability!



Then let people get upset..

I agree totally with buying or not buying. Reread what i have said..

So what you're saying that the end user isn't entitled to know what a game may or may not be like before they pay out? That uprating your own game review, and down rating others is morally okay? It's smoke and mirrors isn't it. I have no doubt that some of these games are going to be outstanding, and worth every penny... Others... Nah, not so much!

There are many influential people in the Amiga world, who won't drool over a new release simply because it is a new release, and will be honest in their review of the game. These are the people who could receive a small demo and review a game fairly. Hell these people can even help by being a non objective beta tester with feedback.. However this is pointless if the developer won't listen to feedback.

Just because a game is released at 10/20/30 £$€ etc doesn't mean it is worth that, and users have every right in 2020 as they did in 1992 to know if something is shit before splashing out.. I've digressed a little off topic here.. But you get my gist i hope

[saimon69]

so this is my take:
the ROI [return of investment] from the time and resources spent on doing a retrogame is a thorny issue that i did experienced firsthand with some games i made music on; however is true that Amiga community does not have the physical numbers to guarantee one; in the past i thought that providing some kind of encapsulation of the game in an emulator (possibly powered by AROS roms, as seen in the archive.org) and selling of other platforms on steam plus other stores at a nominal price could provide both a funding and exposure; however i know there are licensing issues with the emulators to do that legally. In example right now R3D team is working on a version of Bridge Strike for android and Switch that is remade from scratch with a new engine.

For digital downloads i think the price area of 5 to 10 euros is fine, physical is another kettle of fish, however and i have no solutions for that beside going towards cheaper packages like a DVD jewel case and laser printing to keep costs low...

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by Steril707

No, I would not. Like I stated a few pages earlier. 10 Euros for download, a trained version (probably done by Ross) for free a few days later, and a boxed version where the price will be dictated by how expensive it will be to create all that shit.

You should make the download exactly twice as expensive as the boxed version.
Just for fun.

[buzzybee]

Originally Posted by saimon69

... however i know there are licensing issues with the emulators to do that legally.

Interesting. Maybe you want to share your experience with other devs? I for one am very interested; selling on additional platforms with low overhead might help to lower the asking prices on Amiga.

[Overmann]

Originally Posted by BippyM

So what you're saying that the end user isn't entitled to know what a game may or may not be like before they pay out? That uprating your own game review, and down rating others is morally okay? It's smoke and mirrors isn't it. I have no doubt that some of these games are going to be outstanding, and worth every penny... Others... Nah, not so much!

That's not even remotely what I am saying, and I don't think that anything I've written can be taken as me being of that opinion. As far as I can tell I've not commented on those concernes at all..


But as you bring it up, no I'm not sure I think people are ENTITLED to know anything, not in the way I understand the word (but please note that english is not my first language). It's up to us the consumers to gather information and decide wether ot not to buy a game. If there is insufficient information then I wouldn't buy a game. It's in the publishers best interest to get the word out there, and to make sure that that information is as transparently unbias as possible. As we can see here..

[malko]

Originally Posted by Steril707

I think I'd prefer it if you just voted with your wallet. [...] Please promise me you don't buy Inviyya (if it ever gets finished... ) if you think it's not worth what I charge for it and then complain here about it... [...] I'd never shit on that, but simply vote with my wallet if I feel it's not worth the price.

Even if hearing customer's position may hurt some sensibility, if I was the developer of the product, I would much prefer such discussion than people saying nothing and me not knowing WHY they haven't bought my digital-download product.

The wallet-vote will still be there, but I really don't think anybody ("you, me, them, everybody"*, buzzybee, others) would prefer the silence that come from people not buying my digital-download product instead of these people voicing their opinion. Nobody is "Mme Irma". Trying to guess why people are not buying my digital-download product (for which I spent countless hours, for which I missed times with my family, etc.) can be more painful than, for example, a direct punch in the nose. At the end, silence is vicious because it doesn't provide answers. Therefore, I much prefer the noise that is made by answers .

This is especially true as people here, are not criticising to hurt. They are voicing for digital-download prices to go in the win-win direction.

In fact, this is how I understand this thread since the beginning.




* [ Show youtube player ]

[E-Penguin]

In a world where it's possible to drop a grand on Amiga hardware without much effort, spending a few tens of £/$/€ on software doesn't seem unreasonable... £20 was about 2 pints last time I was in London!

Good luck to anyone trying to make commercial software for the Amiga, I say.