Mediator (4 slot) graphics cards and 3D question

[chocsplease]

Hi,

I have the chance of getting hold of a 4 slot Mediator card, which having looked at the Elbox website can be upgraded to the latest firmware found in the 6 slot version.

Given that the 4 slot is practically going to be free this sounds a good deal - but...

There is no point in getting it and then not putting any pci cards in it. I might as well use it as a doorstop. This brings me to my question.

As I understand thjngs the only PCI graphics cards that have 3D drivers are the old Voodoo ones from 3dfx (one of which I threw out 10 years ago ). You can get these on ebay along with the other cards that are compatible with the Mediator. Thing is are the Voodoo ones worth it?

I seem to remember that warp3d only worked with PPCs and my towered A1200 has a 68040. So would it be better to get another make which has a larger on board memory?

Does anyone know if there is software that uses 3d on the Amiga? True 3D that needs a 3D graphics card and not the Doom style kind.

Any advice greatly appreciated.

[trixster]

Warp3d works under OS3.9 with a Voodoo3, 4 and 5, plus the cybervision 3D, BlizzardVision PPC and Cybervision PPC. Warp3d works with 68k 040+ and PPC.

Warp3d work under OS4.1 with the above plus some Radeon cards.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warp3D

[grelbfarlk]

There isn't much point to getting a Radeon over Voodoo, the memory on these cards is only good as GFX memory which 16MB on the Voodoo is more than enough. Voodoo cards are getting less common and more expensive than Radeons though.

[trixster]

Yes, the price of pci voodoo 3 cards is on the up as the retro-pc crowd are snapping them up. Voodoo 4 and 5 cards are well over 100 these days.

[chocsplease]

Originally Posted by trixster

Warp3d works under OS3.9 with a Voodoo3, 4 and 5, plus the cybervision 3D, BlizzardVision PPC and Cybervision PPC. Warp3d works with 68k 040+ and PPC.

Warp3d work under OS4.1 with the above plus some Radeon cards.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warp3D

Many thanks for the link, it is however somewhat confusing as it states that Warp3d works on Radeon 7000 cards, which have a Southern Island chipset and yet the Elbox driver page only mentions Radeon 9000 series cards - and only confirms a few of these have been tested . Most 7x00 series Radeons on ebay are also PCI-e rather than PCI.

I was basically wondering if a card with more memory would be better so that I could run a higher res wb with more colours. The Voodoo cards are... odd ... in the way they process colour as it is sort of but not quite 24 bit due to some internal shenanigans. As for price - yep the Voodoo ones are getting silly.

[Daedalus]

What sort of resolutions are you running? I run a Voodoo 3-3000 at 1920x1200x24, which is about as high as it goes. It runs out of video RAM when you have more than one screen open, but even then it just swaps with your accelerator fast RAM so it takes a second or so to transfer the screen but it's all good then. Perfectly useable though, and it's a dream to use. More video RAM would be nicer if you were thinking of running several screens that size and wanted to instantly switch between them.

Otherwise, the Radeons are much faster, though I'm not sure how much of that advantage is available to the Amiga. Warp3D does work on an 040, but there probably isn't a whole lot of software you would want to run on such a setup. The 060 works well in a setup like that, with some games perfectly playable. I don't know whether an 040 would be enough in the same situation...

Warp3D support on the Radeons isn't available on OS3 as far as I know, though it is available under OS4, which is what might be confusing things.

[chocsplease]

Many thanks for the reply. I don't as yet have the Mediator - or a graphics card so my Amiga is running at a basic over scanned AGA res - which for the life of me I cannot remember at present as I'm not near it.

I'd probably only go to 1080 * 900 or similar at 24 bit however my accelerator only has 8 mb ram (its an Apollo 68040 at I think 40mhz) and only has 1 simm slot. Apparently (http://amiga.resource.cx/exp/apollo1260) I can put 32mb in this and it accepts EDO and FPm ram - but does not say if it has to have parity or not and I confess I don't know how accurate the website is - apologies to the folks who put it together - due to the history of these cards.

Does anyone know if something like this - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RAM-Memory...NhzfKiEpII9eag

or perhaps this - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/32MB-Hynix...4AAOSwUKxYfg4u

would work or even fit? The simm slots on the Apollo are flat and I have a low profile double sided simm in there at present.

[E-Penguin]

I find anything over 1024x768 a bit weird on the Amiga. You spend most of your life moving the mouse around an empty desktop...

[Daedalus]

Yeah, having a "modern" optical mouse and PS/2 converter helps a lot for the large screens, and I really miss the scroll wheel now when I use Amigas without one.

As for the accelerator, you should easily be able to find a 32MB SIMM for pretty cheap that will fit. In general, 32MB SIMMs are double sided so you will need a slimline one, but there are plenty of them out there. Parity doesn't matter on Amiga accelerators. They don't need it, and if it's present on the SIMM, it's just ignored.

[chocsplease]

Hi,

Well the Mediator is here, odd looking beast, and I'm wondering how best to get things talking. I read on 'another site' that someone had had success plugging the A1200's TV out into a TV card to save switching between AGA and the VGA on (no I don't have one yet) the graphics card.

Anyone tried this? Did it work and what was the quality like? Running the 23pin video into a SCART on a LCD TV gives a great picture so I'd like to aim for something as good as this. Is it possible?

As always folks, huge thanks in advance.

[Daedalus]

Yeah, I had that sort of setup in the past. It works fine, but the quality of the Amiga composite through the TV card isn't great at all, and I ended up opting for a scandoubler and monitor switcher instead. TV cards themselves work fine (I have one of the standard WinTV ones), and it served as my TV when I was at uni. I had some DIY add-ons to give me a remote control and an LCD readout of the selected channel

I'm not sure if there are any TV cards that will take an RGB input and be compatible with the Mediator, but if you could find one, it would make a massive difference to quality. It will still never match the direct connection to the TV however...

[chocsplease]

Originally Posted by Daedalus

Yeah, I had that sort of setup in the past. It works fine, but the quality of the Amiga composite through the TV card isn't great at all, and I ended up opting for a scandoubler and monitor switcher instead. TV cards themselves work fine (I have one of the standard WinTV ones), and it served as my TV when I was at uni. I had some DIY add-ons to give me a remote control and an LCD readout of the selected channel

I'm not sure if there are any TV cards that will take an RGB input and be compatible with the Mediator, but if you could find one, it would make a massive difference to quality. It will still never match the direct connection to the TV however...

Thanks for the reply.

A quick look on Amazon etc appears to show that there aren't any RGB PCI capture cards available now, no idea if they existed in the past.

So it looks like I'll either need to go down the converter - switch route or just have to select the TVs input each time I change from workbench to an AGA game. Neither are ideal, the Scart to VGA/HDMI converters I've looked at in the past are quite frankly rubbish or ridiculously expensive. HA! There's even a seller on e-bay who is charging £69 for a box you can get from Amazon for £19 and an Amiga (ie 25 pin with 2 removed plug) cable - that's a hell of an expensive cable!

I guess that there just isn't the market out there for anything more integrated, shame.

[trixster]

The market is served by the Indivision AGA (or AGA 2) and an automatic switch like the Ratte monitor switch. Neither are cheap though.

http://amigakit.amiga.store/catalog/...oducts_id=1148

http://www.amibay.com/showthread.php...AGA-RTG-Switch

[chocsplease]

Originally Posted by trixster

The market is served by the Indivision AGA (or AGA 2) and an automatic switch like the Ratte monitor switch. Neither are cheap though.

http://amigakit.amiga.store/catalog/...oducts_id=1148

http://www.amibay.com/showthread.php...AGA-RTG-Switch

Have to admit I have never heard of the Ratte (and my soldering skills are just not good enough to make one) and the Indivision kind of defeats the point of having a graphics card (or am I missing something?) It's also out of stock - and as you mentioned expensive.

HDMI boxes can auto switch - provided there is only one live input - I have one connected between my Raspberry Pi and PC but I doubt if they would be of use in this case - too many converters lowering the signal quality.

[trixster]

Some classic Amiga RTG cards (examples are the cybervision 64 and the Picasso IV) can pass thru and scan double the native amiga signal so you can use one monitor for both amiga video output and RTG outputted screenmodes.

If you dont have one of these cards (and youre using a Mediator so im guessing you dont) you have a small problem. It can be alieviated somewhat if your modern monitors can handle the Amiga's native 15khz signal but most cannot. If your monitor cannot then you have to find a way to convert the signal and this is where products like the Indivision come in which can convert the graphics output of the Amiga into a format that can be used by modern displays like VGA monitors, flat screens and big screen TV sets.

In this case the Indivision works nicely alongside the graphics cards - the Indi handles Amiga native output (games etc) and the graphics card handles workbench and workbench friendly games. You then put both these signals into the switch (the Ratte one can be purchased pre-built fro about £50 on amibay) and the swtich handles the signals automatically meaning you dont have to faff with the monitor, it just displays what the switch sends to it.

So a product like the Indivision works very well alongside your RTG graphics card.

[MigaTech]

Most Voodoo cards are probably the best. Although I stick to 800x600 resolution. < This for some reason forces me to select 320 resolution settings in order to play Doom series FULL SCREEN in RTG mode. Albeit the same for Nemac IV too and the images are not centred either?


I find that 800x600 is perfect for OS environment, but if I select anything higher than 320 for RTG driven games, I am presented with a small screen in the top left corner. So this is why I select 320 to gain larger screen.

This happens in all modes. Any idea's anyone?

System specifications:

Custom Towered Amiga 1200 1D4
350w ATX PSU
Blizzard 603e 240/256 040/25
32GB SSCF OS4.0
Elbox Mediator 2005 version LT4
Voodoo 3, 3000 GFX 3dfx

I wont bother mentioning the other stuff as I think it is irrelevant to the question.

[chocsplease]

Originally Posted by trixster

Some classic Amiga RTG cards (examples are the cybervision 64 and the Picasso IV) can pass thru and scan double the native amiga signal so you can use one monitor for both amiga video output and RTG outputted screenmodes.

If you dont have one of these cards (and youre using a Mediator so im guessing you dont) you have a small problem. It can be alieviated somewhat if your modern monitors can handle the Amiga's native 15khz signal but most cannot. If your monitor cannot then you have to find a way to convert the signal and this is where products like the Indivision come in which can convert the graphics output of the Amiga into a format that can be used by modern displays like VGA monitors, flat screens and big screen TV sets.

In this case the Indivision works nicely alongside the graphics cards - the Indi handles Amiga native output (games etc) and the graphics card handles workbench and workbench friendly games. You then put both these signals into the switch (the Ratte one can be purchased pre-built fro about £50 on amibay) and the swtich handles the signals automatically meaning you dont have to faff with the monitor, it just displays what the switch sends to it.

So a product like the Indivision works very well alongside your RTG graphics card.

Hi thanks for the reply,

The TV I use is 1080p so fine as a monitor and has a scart socket, which is where the Amiga is currently plugged in. It also, I have just discovered has a somewhat hidden VGA socket (Its behind a little door, no I don't know why either).

However it is a complete pain changing from input to input on this tv, you have to go through hoops and sometimes it just does not do it..grrrr. So I am still on the lookout for some way to automatically combine/switch the pci graphics card's output and the Amiga's. Its such a shame that as far as I can tell there was only 1 Zorro type expander for the A1200, now long out of production and even if it was not getting an appropriate Zorro card is well nigh impossible.

Given the low customer base it is extremely unlikely that anyone will develop such a card and the necessary zorro cards to go with it. I am always pleasantly surprised that there is still so much you can get for the Amiga given its age.

MigaTech: - I have seen your problem in the past, but not on the Amiga, on PCs where the programme was not fully compatible with the graphics card. Then all sorts of strangeness can result. This was long before we had Directx etc and each game had to have specific graphics code for the various cards. Doom is old enough to be such a programme so I wonder if it has its own graphics handling code and there is an issue there?

[MigaTech]

Originally Posted by chocsplease

MigaTech: - I have seen your problem in the past, but not on the Amiga, on PCs where the programme was not fully compatible with the graphics card. Then all sorts of strangeness can result. This was long before we had Directx etc and each game had to have specific graphics code for the various cards. Doom is old enough to be such a programme so I wonder if it has its own graphics handling code and there is an issue there?

Interesting you should state this because I was thinking that maybe this could be one possible issue. I find that it does the small screen in all resolutions with the exception of 320? The game plays OK in that annoying small screen as it does in the larger 320. So this kind of adds to the confusion.

As for your switch screen problem. My system runs OS through the Voodoo 3000's VGA and RTG driven software. The moment I select a classic Amiga game, it auto switches to RGB. Yes I have to use X2 VDU's but it works OK.

I was thinking of using a TV card to keep all visuals in once place as my monitor does not have 15.1KHz range. < Nor does it have an composite input!