12 February 2018, 14:11 | #41 |
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I agree about the SIMM sockets. Upgrading the memory of an A1200 would always add an extra cost, something like 100 £ / 200 DM because of the need of a custom board made in much, much smaller quantities than the SIMMs themselves. So whereas the PC crowd could always take advantage of sinking RAM costs, A1200 users were kept from even getting a single megabyte of fast RAM since the initial cost was several times higher, and if they did take that cost, the amount of memory they could get was effectively half that of the PC crowd.
I don't really agree about the need for a 030, though. The speed difference between 68020 and 68030 is quite minor — RAM makes so much more of a difference. |
12 February 2018, 14:20 | #42 |
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Commodore should have pushed the standard for games higher with the A1200. Even if it only did have the 020, they could have urged developers to make full use of AGA, a hard drive and maybe some fast RAM (perhaps by offering a bundle with a 1 or 2 meg card right from the start).
But as things turned out, early AGA games were pretty lack-luster. Most games were more or less the same as with the A500, maybe a little more colourful, delivered on a couple of floppies so there wasn't any incentive for people to upgrade. Had there been some really top tier games that made use of a hard drive, extra RAM, accelerators and whatnot, more people would have invested in those things rather than going for a PC or consoles. Whether that could have saved the business in the long run, hard to say, but it definitely didn't help that the platform stagnated to a 1988-ish level (games-wise, anyway). |
12 February 2018, 14:24 | #43 |
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Amiga 1200 was expensive for what it offered. A floppy based computer, similar power of a slow 386 without a monitor and hard disk. Without any games too. PCs were cheaper and had more and better games around 1993-94.
Having and Amiga 1200 with a 68030, ram, hard disk and a multisync monitor was much more expensive than having a 386-VGA monitor and Hard disk from what I remember. Maybe 40% more expensive or so. And it's normal, PCs used mass consumption parts made in Taiwan or China. |
12 February 2018, 14:38 | #44 | |
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12 February 2018, 16:24 | #45 | |
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US-Dollar to Pound exchange rate in 1992: 1.5 "Take a look for example at this Northgate advertisement from Infoworld in May of 1991. A business-class 386/33 with 4MB of RAM, a 200MB hard disk and 14" display went for $4299. A similarly-equipped 486-33 in the April 1 issue from Tandon was $7699." from 1991s-pc-technology-was-unbelievable/ some ultra-cheap Hyundai 386SX/33: 2MB RAM, 85MB HD, ISA (no EISA !!) for $1050 without monitor (1300 with) PC-Mag Dec 1992 That was £700. so no: I can really not understand the argument of being too expensive here. Last edited by Gorf; 12 February 2018 at 22:40. |
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12 February 2018, 16:41 | #46 | |
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that's why I suggested a 68EC030@28Mhz earlier. (the 25MHz rated version would probably been good enough ...) And would have been a great benefit for marketing: (technically incorrect) the 020 was associated with the 286 for most customers, while the 030 was compared to the 386. Last edited by Gorf; 12 February 2018 at 21:38. |
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12 February 2018, 16:49 | #47 |
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299 x 1.5 about 450$. Add 030, RAM, hard disk (add about 600$ alone) and a multisync monitor (probably around 400-500$) and it had no games. You could get a 200$ used A500 and have the same games.
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12 February 2018, 16:51 | #48 |
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In my opinion CPU would have been perfectly fine (and chip-ram only config) _if_ chipset had been fully updated to 32/64-bit wide modes, but AGA only did it only for bitplanes and sprites.
CPU access to custom registers is still 16-bit wide and has same slow timing as 68000 A500! (At least chip ram is 32-bit wide) 4x faster blitter would have made HUGE difference. Wider Copper (for example ability to do 2 or 4 MOVEs in single cycle) would also helped a lot. A1200 was too unbalanced vs A500. |
12 February 2018, 17:05 | #49 | |
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Plus i would never touch a DOS based PC a bargepole even if we had the chance to go back and pick again! Last edited by Amigajay; 12 February 2018 at 17:12. |
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12 February 2018, 17:18 | #50 | |
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Seagate 89MB $270 or "Connor" 120MB $270 (from the same magazine from Dec. 92) RAM was the same (2MB) on the PC offer. Mitsubishi Diamond Scan: $450 That gives us a A1200/030 with 120MB HD and multisync monitor for $1270 Compared to the ultra cheap 386SX, 85MB HD, cheap monitor for $1300 no games, same games ... thats always the hen and the egg problem And of course Toni is right (as always). AGA was not enough. But that was my point in the beginning: what could C= have done even with nothing better than AGA in 1992. So at least give it a decent CPU and FastRAM and get AA+ ready asap. Last edited by Gorf; 12 February 2018 at 19:58. |
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12 February 2018, 17:26 | #51 | |||||||||||||||
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Which is a significant amount in its own right.
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A more powerful A1200 at a little bit higher price would not have been too expensive but just right. People were manly disappointed by the low specs and not by the price.[/quote] Hmmmm, a lot of people were also disappointed by the price, which is why I keep mentioning it. I couldn't get one myself because it was too expensive at the time, and likewise for many of my C64 and 8-bit Atari owning friends. It was only the more privileged kids that got A1200s for Christmas - how many more would've missed out if it was more expensive still? Quote:
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12 February 2018, 18:06 | #52 |
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12 February 2018, 18:56 | #53 |
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@ nobody
What year? (And somehow I am missing the point: that proves what I was saying, doesn’t it?) |
12 February 2018, 19:36 | #54 | ||||||
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we are talking about 10 - 15 % increase
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that was probably the first thing I mentioned here: give it FastRAM (1 Chip, 1 Fast soldered on, SIMM-sockets to upgrade both easily) Quote:
we just saw the GVP ad here. A much smaller company had obviously no problem in offering a whole range of cpu-boards at a reasonable price, while C= essentially had only 4 products left in 92, with the unchanged C64 being one of them. Quote:
Given a easy and cheap possibility for more RAM, surly more would take that route... and lacking a good offer to start with, ..... and after the bankruptcy most did not believe in any future of the platform, an did not want to invest more money in upgrades. Quote:
Fact is, they could have sold more in 1992, with more units available. The customer base was getting older, from teenagers towards young adults, that could afford higher priced equipment. The PC was selling to these people, while the C= had no good offer. Since you could not afford a A1200 back than, you could not afford a PC as well. Cases like this were not the "problem". You could not get anything better for a lower price in 1992. C= would have needed to target the people that could afford a new amiga, but changed platform or never considered Amiga. Quote:
more like: A1000 Plus [QUOTE] And put the RTC on the board instead?/[QUOTE] AFAIK there are some boards with designated space for clock-chip and battery, so it seems it was already planed to have it on board. (yes, that makes it even more expensive, by ... $5?) Quote:
Last edited by Gorf; 12 February 2018 at 21:41. |
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12 February 2018, 20:05 | #55 |
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it was crap. Offered nothing over 500.
they should have just redesigned a500 and made it alot cheaper. |
12 February 2018, 20:22 | #56 | |
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(Integrate ECS into one or two chips and a much smaller board... that would have helped to reduce costs.) But they failed and the A600 had $50 more production cost than the canceled A500 plus. And the A600 did not sell at this price, because one could not use all the nice expansions the A500 could use... that was an other big mistake of C= in 1992. |
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12 February 2018, 20:28 | #57 | |
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@nobody that ad proves to me even with a 386/16 and with windows and mouse and colour monitor it still came to £999! That setup couldn't run Doom either, you would need the £1399+£200 (£1599) bundle (edit: just noticed those prices don't include VAT!) Last edited by Amigajay; 12 February 2018 at 21:12. |
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12 February 2018, 20:29 | #58 | |
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So the choice is between A4000 with a hard drive and a multisync and a 386DX/20 with hard drive and VGA monitor. Should be the same price back then. I guess Amstrad could have some even cheaper 386s than this but I didn't search much. |
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12 February 2018, 20:42 | #59 | ||
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I mentioned the planed A1000 Plus, that would have filled the obvious gap. The engineers had the right idea there. the time of keyboard computers was over, but nobody told C=. Last edited by Gorf; 12 February 2018 at 21:53. |
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12 February 2018, 20:44 | #60 |
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