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Old 14 January 2020, 18:17   #81
dreadnought
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roondar View Post
They had a very, very small library of non-twitch games compared to the Amiga
Huh? Are you sure we are talking about 16-bit consoles and not Atari 2600 for example?

Quote:
Oh and... SNES games don't count in an Amiga vs Mega Drive comparison so, err why are you talking about them exactly?

In a discussion comparing the Mega Drive to the A1200, the PC is 100% irrelevant
Because it's fun to go outside of an extremely narrow scope of a forum thread and make it a bit more relevant?

In any case I was replying to the previous poster, making a point that these machines were good not only for arcade games. And as I said before, yes, entire Amiga library was overall better for these genres which I also prefer.

But A1200 was released in 1992, when MD was cheap with a huge library of a quality games and 386 kinda affordable too, with next-gen games. Tbh *as a gamer*, if I was to buy my first machine that year I'd probably just buy A500 and start saving for a PC, because A1200 with it's handful of slightly improved AGA ports was simply too expensive.
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Old 14 January 2020, 18:32   #82
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I mean, I have some good grasp on the OCS capabilities now, especially for a system like the A500 plus some extra 512k.

But just extrapolating from there to what I know about the A1200, I am sure you could create some really crazy looking action games there.

Some thoughts:

If I'd be able to use 32px wide sprites with my multiplexer, I could have 4 16 colour sprites per scanline. That doesn't sound much, but in reality that means you could have 4 times x 200px of sprites height. In Inviyya, most of the objects are around 24px hight. That's around 8 of them for 200 px height.
Means, there are 32 (4 x 8) 16 colour sprites that I can command for almost no DMA time. The y-sorting would take the most cost here, and that's 100% CPU time.

Which brings me to the next point:
The CPU in the A1200 is pure 32bit and a lot faster than the 68k in the A500.

With the larger fetch modes having more bitplanes seems to be not that much of a burden on DMA time.

But even then, I'd have enough time left to blit some large shit if my 32 sprites are not enough.

Then, one bitplane is around 8 kb for a 320x200 screen. That doesn't change for the A1200. But I have 4 times as much RAM to directly access in ChipRAM. For just 8kb I can double the amount of colours on screen.

Let's stay conservative, and just go with 64 colours. Which isn't much less than what can be seen on most MD or SNES games. That's six bitplanes, so we are at 48 kb now.

Which leaves me with TONS OF RAM for good quality sound effects and music, and sprite assets and whatever.

I really think, the A1200 has been barely explored.
McGeezer and BuzzyBee have been taking some great steps in that direction, but I feel there is room for a lot more that we are barely scratching the surface of that right now.

And, with all of that in mind, the Megadrive doesn't seem that much of a force to me, to be honest. At least compared to the A1200.
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Old 14 January 2020, 18:43   #83
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Originally Posted by Steril707 View Post
I mean, I have some good grasp on the OCS capabilities now, especially for a system like the A500 plus some extra 512k.

But just extrapolating from there to what I know about the A1200, I am sure you could create some really crazy looking action games there.

Some thoughts:

If I'd be able to use 32px wide sprites with my multiplexer, I could have 4 16 colour sprites per scanline. That doesn't sound much, but in reality that means you could have 4 times x 200px of sprites height. In Inviyya, most of the objects are around 24px hight. That's around 8 of them for 200 px height.
Means, there are 32 (4 x 8) 16 colour sprites that I can command for almost no DMA time. The y-sorting would take the most cost here, and that's 100% CPU time.

Which brings me to the next point:
The CPU in the A1200 is pure 32bit and a lot faster than the 68k in the A500.

With the larger fetch modes having more bitplanes seems to be not that much of a burden on DMA time.

But even then, I'd have enough time left to blit some large shit if my 32 sprites are not enough.

Then, one bitplane is around 8 kb for a 320x200 screen. That doesn't change for the A1200. But I have 4 times as much RAM to directly access in ChipRAM. For just 8kb I can double the amount of colours on screen.

Let's stay conservative, and just go with 64 colours. Which isn't much less than what can be seen on most MD or SNES games. That's six bitplanes, so we are at 48 kb now.

Which leaves me with TONS OF RAM for good quality sound effects and music, and sprite assets and whatever.

I really think, the A1200 has been barely explored.
McGeezer and BuzzyBee have been taking some great steps in that direction, but I feel there is room for a lot more that we are barely scratching the surface of that right now.

And, with all of that in mind, the Megadrive doesn't seem that much of a force to me, to be honest. At least compared to the A1200.
^^^ THIS.

It's a shame there's no real hardware reference manual (like with an ISBN) for AGA because I think that would really help devs unlock it's power, only yesterday I was struggling to get Dual Playfield mode working properly and needed the help of the guys on here.

The MD for me has some great games.... but the A1200 with it's catalog of A500 games for compatibility beats it hands down.

The SNES is a different beast, I'd be the first to say that the SNES would beat a megadrive and A1200 to death - put together.
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Old 14 January 2020, 18:46   #84
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Yep, with the SNES I am not so sure. I'd need to experiment a lot first off, to make some predictions there.
But I am quite sure, that we'd be able to match or surpass of what the MD has to offer, if we had good enough assets and sfx and music and time for coding stuff...
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Old 14 January 2020, 18:51   #85
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Depends on the games. If we are talking about plain and fast arcade orientated action games the SNES doesn't beat the Mega Drive. Not a chance. Apart from Mario Kart i never liked this awful Mode-7 nonsense. Just more show than use, e.g. the awful top down levels in Contra III. The SNES shines in other games categories.

Last edited by Retro-Nerd; 14 January 2020 at 19:21.
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Old 14 January 2020, 18:59   #86
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Well the SNES have a weak processor if I remember correctly and the console was criticized for many slowdowns in some arcade games... I'm not sure this console was that superior over the MD a part for the gfx part (more colors but a poor screen definition thought).

https://hackaday.com/2019/08/18/addi...with-slowdown/
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Old 14 January 2020, 19:08   #87
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I'd say where the SNES shines is with its triple and quadruple playfield architecture along it's sprite capabilities.
Something like this is not that easy to recreate.

[ Show youtube player ]

Especially with its transparent layers in front of everything, etc...
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Old 14 January 2020, 19:09   #88
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Edit: This post turned out rather cluttered IMHO. I'll try to keep any further replies a tad shorter
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreadnought View Post
Huh? Are you sure we are talking about 16-bit consoles and not Atari 2600 for example?
Absolutely. The SNES and MD's library in these categories combined isn't even a fraction of what the Amiga got. I'm genuinely puzzled you seem to think this is not the case
Quote:
Because it's fun to go outside of an extremely narrow scope of a forum thread and make it a bit more relevant?
Maybe, but as I read it, you seemed to kinda be saying "yeah, the A1200 is better for some game types - but who cares, ignore that and buy a PC for those". And that doesn't seem like a fair way to look at a comparison between 16 bit consoles and the A1200 to me. Which is why I responded that way
Quote:
In any case I was replying to the previous poster, making a point that these machines were good not only for arcade games. And as I said before, yes, entire Amiga library was overall better for these genres which I also prefer.
Oh I agree there are some good non-arcade games on consoles. Just like there are some quite good action games on the Amiga (1200 or not). But that doesn't make the Amiga the worse choice for the non-arcade games or vice versa. I'd say this is something we agree on
Quote:
But A1200 was released in 1992, when MD was cheap with a huge library of a quality games and 386 kinda affordable too, with next-gen games. Tbh *as a gamer*, if I was to buy my first machine that year I'd probably just buy A500 and start saving for a PC, because A1200 with it's handful of slightly improved AGA ports was simply too expensive.
It was a heck of a lot cheaper than your alternative of buying an A500 and a PC though, or your earlier "get a PC and an MD instead" alternative
Anyway, I respect your opinion. I don't really agree with it*, but I get it.

*) Especially on price and the whole library size argument. The A1200 launched at a very reasonable price (well below the A500 launch price and cheaper than essentially any other computer that wasn't years old at the time). On the topic of the games library, the Amiga at that time had around 10x the games available that the MD had. And despite some people claiming differently it had a similar ratio of bad-to-good games in it.
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Old 14 January 2020, 19:19   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steril707 View Post
I'd say where the SNES shines is with its triple and quadruple playfield architecture along it's sprite capabilities.
Something like this is not that easy to recreate.

[ Show youtube player ]

Especially with its transparent layers in front of everything, etc...
Yup - Or look at the first couple of minutes of this game... when the big cruiser ship turns up with the exploding circles...

[ Show youtube player ]

An A1200 can't do that.
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Old 14 January 2020, 19:21   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steril707 View Post
I'd say where the SNES shines is with its triple and quadruple playfield architecture along it's sprite capabilities.
Something like this is not that easy to recreate.

[ Show youtube player ]


Especially with its transparent layers in front of everything, etc...
Yes but this particular game use a coprocessor included in the cartridge...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_FX?wprov=sfla1

Last edited by sokolovic; 14 January 2020 at 19:26.
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Old 14 January 2020, 19:47   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steril707 View Post

Quote:
This will be a very unpopular opinion, but I also believe the YM + PSG combo whips Paula's ass. No "choose sound or music" bullshit on the Sega.
Paula is as good as how much ChipRAM you give her.
With a couple of hundred KBs of RAM you can do some very professional level sounding music that will sound better than what you usually get on the MD. And you have that amount of space on the A1200.
With a genius musician, in average 30k per mod and two, max three channels is what you need for professional sound

[ Show youtube player ]

With a less genius a bit more RAM (50 to 100k usually) but still a decent result:

[ Show youtube player ]
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Old 14 January 2020, 20:17   #92
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Originally Posted by dreadnought View Post
Tbh *as a gamer*, if I was to buy my first machine that year I'd probably just buy A500 and start saving for a PC, because A1200 with it's handful of slightly improved AGA ports was simply too expensive.
Eh?! The A1200 was only £100 more than the A500/A600 and for the money to get 2x the ram and 2x cpu speed and upgraded software it was a great buy if you didn’t already own an Amiga. If only Commodore got into bed with Flare instead of Atari for the custom chips!
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Old 14 January 2020, 22:36   #93
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Originally Posted by roondar View Post
Absolutely. The SNES and MD's library in these categories combined isn't even a fraction of what the Amiga got. I'm genuinely puzzled you seem to think this is not the case
Because it just isn't so. SNES itself had more RPGs than Amiga, so I wouldn't say their non-twitch library was "very, very small" a "fraction", or that these consoles were strictly for the arcaders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roondar View Post
Maybe, but as I read it, you seemed to kinda be saying "yeah, the A1200 is better for some game types - but who cares, ignore that and buy a PC for those".
But it's kinda true The devil's in the year: in 1992 A1200 as a gaming machine was a kinda pointless propositon. Okay, in an universe in which PC did not exist and it was A1200 vs consoles I would get A1200. But in the one we happen to inhabit...

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Originally Posted by roondar View Post
It was a heck of a lot cheaper than your alternative of buying an A500 and a PC though, or your earlier "get a PC and an MD instead" alternative
A1200 was priced at 599$ at launch and did not really offer much compared to A500 in terms of real gaming software (not the hypothetical one).
I don't know the exact prices but I suppose MD could be got for under a 100, and a 386 PC built for ~1000$. So, if I had an adult-level income I'd just get that (or SNES instead of MD). And otherwise I'd totally much rather get a cheap second hand A500, enjoying that huge library we agree on , while saving for a PC, than sink a lot of dosh in a system which was going nowhere and offered minuscule improvements in regard to games.

Anyway, don't take my word for it - people themselves have voted with their wallets back then

Quote:
Originally Posted by roondar View Post
Anyway, I respect your opinion. I don't really agree with it*, but I get it.
Same here, these threads can be kinda fun (and they're as old as retro gaming boards themselves) as long as folks don't get too heated over what is, after all, splitting hair about mostly hypothetical situations
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Old 15 January 2020, 13:36   #94
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Please note: I still disagree on the sales price/figures/two system/etc stuff, but this post will get far too long if I include it. Since I don't see us agreeing any time soon and still think it's off-topic, I removed it from my replies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreadnought View Post
Because it just isn't so. SNES itself had more RPGs than Amiga, so I wouldn't say their non-twitch library was "very, very small" a "fraction", or that these consoles were strictly for the arcaders.
If you're just going to straw man my position, I'll probably stop discussing this. I mean, I know this discussion isn't all that serious, but I'd like it if you didn't misrepresent what I'm saying

First: I did not say non-twitch gamer can't enjoy consoles for their non-twitch games. In fact, I never even implied that. What I did say was that non-twitchers are better served by having an Amiga instead of a console. This is a position I still 100% stand by. Second: the argument about library. My position was and still is that the Amiga library of non-twitch games (we're not just looking at RPGs, but at all genres) is way, way bigger than the non-twitch library of the consoles.

Edit: To be clear then: when I said "fraction" and "very, very small" I was comparing the size of their libraries in these genres to the Amiga library for these genres as a whole. Not on a single genre basis.

So, even if it were to be true that the SNES has more RPGs than the Amiga, that'd mean very little if it has much fewer games in other non-twitch categories. After all, I wasn't saying anything about RPGs in particular, but non-twitch gaming in general.

In the end I decided to look it up for the benefit of this thread. After all, my memory might have been in error and it's actually on topic as it compares the A1200 with the MD in some fashion . With that in mind, here's a list of what I found so far*.
Code:
Total library size
Amiga: ~7000
SNES: ~900
MD: ~800

Total non-twitch library size
Amiga: 1857 (6xSNES non-twitch, 10xMD non-twitch)
SNES: 312
MD: 174

RPG's
Amiga: 211
SNES: 173
MD: 56

Strategy/Wargames
Amiga: 487
SNES: 26
MD: 23

Simulation
Amiga: 126
SNES: 15
MD: 12

Adventure (excluding "Action Adventure")
Amiga: 556
SNES: 31
MD: 26

Puzzle
Amiga: 477
SNES: 67
MD: 57

All numbers are as found at the given sources
In other words, I am correct in saying the Amiga has way, way more non-twitch games than consoles do. In fact, the Amiga has considerably more non-twitch games than the MD+SNES have games across all genres combined. If we look at it per genre, we see that apart from SNES RPGs, the Amiga generally has around 10x the games in any given non-twitch genre. To me this qualifies as consoles having a very small library by comparison.

*) sources include hol.abime.net and www.gamesdatabase.org (which seems to be the most complete of the console game databases I found when Googling). It is known hol.abime.net is incomplete and it's certainly probable the same goes for gamesdatabase.org. In general however, I feel these sites give a reasonable estimate for the numbers even if they might be off in places.
Quote:
...<snip>... about mostly hypothetical situations
I think we end up disagreeing so much because to me this thread is clearly about a very different subject than it is to you. To me, it's not really all that hypothetical to ask "which machine can do better games: a or b" after both being available for around 30 years. And to me, this has nothing to do with the market at the time - as interesting as such a discussion can be.

Last edited by roondar; 15 January 2020 at 14:09.
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Old 15 January 2020, 14:13   #95
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Based on what Reshoot-R does in places and the theoritical limits of AGA, I'd say there are many situations even in action games, an A1200 would be overall superior to SNES and Mega Drive.

Last edited by vulture; 15 January 2020 at 15:16.
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Old 15 January 2020, 14:36   #96
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Also remember Sonic fitted on 1 floppy disk(512kb) and Street Fighter II fitted on 2. I know its not quite fair comparison but makes you think.
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Old 15 January 2020, 16:21   #97
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As a gaming machine the Megadrive would win, I think what you mean is as a machine to develop games for, in which case, I don't have the authority to say as I don't code, but it does feel like the Amiga architecture is less friendly with games than the Megadrive.

I do agree though with Steril, that the A1200 has barely been explored and that is a shame. The world got mad with accelerators and trying to run DOOM. A stock A1200 wields incredible power for making games, but not many seem to be doing much about it.
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as a gaming machine...?
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Old 15 January 2020, 17:33   #98
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Originally Posted by roondar View Post
Please note: I still disagree on the sales price/figures/two system/etc stuff, but this post will get far too long if I include it. Since I don't see us agreeing any time soon and still think it's off-topic, I removed it from my replies.
Jeez, ok.You are right; this is getting way too long and anal, and like I said earlier, these threads are only fun (for me at least) when people do not take them too seriously, and I think we unfortunately just went past this threshold.

Just a quick note on the research side of your post, since game collections and stats are a kinda of a hobby of mine. Your numbers seem a little bit off to start with, eg Wiki says there were 1125 *exclusive* SNES games in total. As for Amiga, my latest Gamebase has about 5100 games, and they usually do a great job of filtering out duplicates. Out of these ~4500 was released commercially (and out of that quite a few as edutaiment), which is something to consider as well.

But this is just me being pedantic, because even if we take your valuation as correct - that Amiga had ~1817 non twitch games vs 486 of the consoles, then it's more than a quarter. A quarter is not a "very, very small number" nor a "fraction", at least not a fraction in a sense it's implied in. And yes, you could get both of these machines for the price of A1200 in 1992 - in fact my latest idea is that somebody on a budget could get an A500 and MD or SNES and enjoy the best of both worlds

And let's not forget that my original point (in response to other poster you quoted) was simply that consoles had also a big library of non-twitch games (many of them absolutely iconic) and that I've already said earlier that "computers had no competition when it came to the "serious" games" (the reason why there's A500 on a desk next to me, not and MD or SNES). So perhaps all these multi-quote, database-digging replies really were for nought?



Quote:
Originally Posted by roondar View Post
I think we end up disagreeing so much because to me this thread is clearly about a very different subject than it is to you.
Quite possibly. You must pardon me that I do not take a premise like this - a 30 y.o. console vs a computer (which was released a few years later) entirely seriously and allow some side thoughts. And of course it's a hypothetical one, because unless you have some sort of ability to peer into parallel universes we will never know what could've happened if you had professional codeshops going at it. Yes, it's 2020, but I have yet to see ports of Gunstar Heroes or Castlevania on A1200, while MD homebrew scene was always smaller and not that interested in porting UFO or some old adventures.
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Old 15 January 2020, 19:06   #99
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I don't really want to dig into this conversation which is a bit off tonic but dreadnought, you seems to forget two things that are very important IMHO
1 / the price of MD and SNES games vs Amiga ones (and don't forget the piracy, because it was also a reason people choose the Amiga over the consoles).
2 / many, maybe the vast majority, of JRPG on these consoles weren't actually released outside Japan and were not accessible for non japanese speakers.
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Old 15 January 2020, 19:10   #100
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simply that consoles had also a big library of non-twitch games (many of them absolutely iconic)
Emphasis mine. This (aside from the question of ease-of-piracy that made the Amiga superior) is the real issue, isn't it?

SNES and MD have some absolutely cracking franchises on them. The Amiga could do those sorts of games quite probably, but they still wouldn't be those games, would they?

It's all very well saying that "we can do a platformer like Sonic" when it's obviously not Sonic. Or Zelda. Or Mario. You need those consoles to play those games, at least legally.

Otherwise you just end up with Tux-envy (where Linux enthusiasts make bad clones of popular games and put the Tux penguin in so they can have those games too) and nobody really wants that.
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