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Old 25 November 2017, 20:44   #101
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Some chatter on Lemon has prompted me to offer up an alternative Super 5 scoring system and some comparisons of the various options. You can take a look on the lemon thread.
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Old 25 November 2017, 22:07   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john4p View Post
The fixed-26-spread does look good but with 30 points for 1st place it will increase the gap between titans and human beings again which will discourage some players after only a few rounds.
The points gaps for all systems 16 thru 26 have the same points gaps. There would be 10 extra points over the other systems, but with 10th worth 17 points instead of 7, it would mean more to those people catching up.

I think 10th could be worth around half of the top points, to keep the mid field of players interested. 10 Points for Super-5 is half of 20, but 7 points for Fixed-16 is less than half.

For example,
If 10th was worth 7 points (Fixed 16), thats 35% of the leaders 20 points.
If 10th was worth 17 points (Fixed-26), thats 57% of the leaders 30 points.

I also think 20th could be worth half of half the top points. So with 20 points as the top mark, this would be half of 10 = 5 points. Or, with 30 as the top mark, it would be half of 15 = 7.5 points.

With the Super-5 system, 20th gets 7 points (70% of 10 points for 10th).
With Fixed 16, 20th gets 1 point (14.5% of 7 points for 10th).
With Fixed-26, 20th gets 7 points (41% of 17 points for 10th).

Biscuit, I'll take a look.
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Old 26 November 2017, 03:50   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biscuit
The top 11 places get fixed points
20-17-15-13-12-11-10-9-8-7-6
We use 11th place score to calculate a proportional bonus for those below.
I like that idea better then the original super 5

Current personal preference:
1. Fixed 21/26.. probably 21 as it seems better balance vs. expected turnout
2. Super 5 Top 10
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Old 26 November 2017, 06:52   #104
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I like that idea better then the original super 5

Current personal preference:
1. Fixed 21/26.. probably 21 as it seems better balance vs. expected turnout
2. Super 5 Top 10
I guess Super 5 top 10 needs to be referred to as Super 10?
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Old 26 November 2017, 12:53   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mihcael
I guess Super 5 top 10 needs to be referred to as Super 10?
Yeah, or Super 11 since 11th place is the one that counts for the bottom of the table.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeschool View Post
The points gaps for all systems 16 thru 26 have the same points gaps. There would be 10 extra points over the other systems, but with 10th worth 17 points instead of 7, it would mean more to those people catching up.

I think 10th could be worth around half of the top points, to keep the mid field of players interested. 10 Points for Super-5 is half of 20, but 7 points for Fixed-16 is less than half.
Okay, I'm not opposed to raise the max score anymore. It'll work and bottom players should earn enough points to not get discouraged.

Last edited by john4p; 26 November 2017 at 13:04.
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Old 26 November 2017, 13:13   #106
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With Super 11 the bottom can only hope to get up to 6 points (to get further they have to pass 11th).

I like that with Super 5 everyone can get up to 12 points.

But since the 5th place's score sometimes still can be quite high how about Super 7 as a nice compromise?

Top 7 would get 20-17-15-13-12-11-10 and the rest of the table could get anything between 1 and 10 points depending on how good their score is compared to the 7th place's score.
We could see multiple players get 8, 9 and 10 points this way.

I think this system would feel more rewarding and competitive than a purely fixed system or Super 11.

There was a good reason why the proportional scoring was introduced in the first place. Turned out it can get too frustrating when your score is calculated proportionally to the 1st place. But it won't be when it's calculated to the 7th place (well, almost never).

Last edited by john4p; 26 November 2017 at 13:19.
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Old 28 November 2017, 18:32   #107
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General Notice:

We are now rapidly running into the final week of this debate, and we need to finalise the systems which will be voted for in the first vote.

I suggest each player who has submitted a system must select ONE, and choose this to be voted for.

Graham - Your option is to keep the existing system.
Mike - If you would prefer to replace 75/25 with another system, thats fine.
lifeschool - I choose the fixed 26 system as my choice to be voted upon.
John - Do you want to keep your Fixed 16 or choose something else?
Biscuit - Do you want to propose your Top 10 idea as the one to vote for?

This makes five options, so we can rank our votes 1 - 5. I think splitting biscuits options into a separate vote is rather pointless as they are pretty similar, and this would weaken his vote. If biscuit knows his numbers, then it should be possible to select the best idea and chose one. If a public poll needs to be done to select the best biscuit option, then this is the place to ask for opinions and perhaps run a poll.

As the Bonus points ideas have gone down rather badly, I suggest we dont need to run a second vote for a bonus system unless the Fixed 16 is the winner. If John would rather withdraw the Fixed 16 idea, we could run the vote for the Player League Scoring system for two weeks instead of one?
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Old 28 November 2017, 20:46   #108
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I'd like to erase Fixed-16 and suggest Super 7.

But as an alternative to also adding Biscuit's Super 11 we could just have one Super X-option.
Should that one get the majority of votes we could then have another poll if it shall be Super 7, Super 8, Super 9, Super 10 or Super 11.

I also like ED's Fixed-21.
25 points maximum sounds nice and in this system the top 20 would get more than 1 point. Everyone outside top twenty gets 1 consolation point. Sounds very practical to me.
Maybe just offer "Fixed" as one option (like Super X) and should that one get the majority we could then decide between Fixed-26 and Fixed-21.

(copy of my Lemon post)
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Old 29 November 2017, 00:43   #109
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I'm happy to just have Super-X on the options and a follow up poll for 7-11. Two Super-X options will just split the vote.

It's a similar situation for the fixed systems. With the added complication of bonus points.
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Old 29 November 2017, 00:52   #110
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Considering John is in favour of a Super system I'm gonna pull out of choosing an option and let him decide which one goes on the options list.
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Old 29 November 2017, 08:56   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeschool View Post
[b]...
Mike - If you would prefer to replace 75/25 with another system, thats fine.
...
I dont think I have proposed any system, I have discussed the merits many though.

If I was, it would probably be too stupid for most people.

-The base points would be dynamic (to num of Players)
-There would be some sort of bonus for whooping peoples arses. (but not proportional)
-You would get bonus points for beating the previous rounds winner
-You would be penalised for finishing below me on the table
-You would get a bonus for competing on real hardware. (because you are at a disadvantage)
-And Scores submitted on a Thursday wont count.
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Old 29 November 2017, 12:28   #112
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
Considering John is in favour of a Super system I'm gonna pull out of choosing an option and let him decide which one goes on the options list.
Thanks Biscuit. I'd like to set Super 7 as the option then. "Super X" as an option might be too confusing.

I'll describe Super 7 in detail and will point out that the "7" in it isn't set in stone so we could lower it.

P.S. @all: Super 7 is like Fixed-16, only more dynamic and flexible.


Quote:
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You would get a bonus for competing on real hardware. (because you are at a disadvantage)
I had thought about this, too, but it might be considered unfair by those who can't obtain a real Amiga anymore (e.g. no space for it).

Last edited by john4p; 29 November 2017 at 12:42.
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Old 29 November 2017, 16:59   #113
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-You would be penalised for finishing below me on the table
If we could focus on things that might actually occur that would be useful. I think Dune II is unlikely to come up again.
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Old 29 November 2017, 17:22   #114
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Originally Posted by john4p View Post
.

I had thought about this, too, but it might be considered unfair by those who can't obtain a real Amiga anymore (e.g. no space for it).
Given Biscuits F1GP complaints about his keyboard this is not a bonus that should be restricted to 90s hardware.

I actually love the idea of promoting original hardware usage...but it's just not that fair in practice. Many of us would prefer to use it but can't realise that in the real world.
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Old 01 December 2017, 06:50   #115
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On the flip side; real hardware has less input lag
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Old 01 December 2017, 11:09   #116
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Good point.

In hindsight it really was a disadvantage to play in WinUAE in the first seasons with the old vsync. Back then I didn't notice it but now I feel the difference between the new Low Latency VSync and the Legacy VSync is huge.
With low latency vsync the difference in input lag compared to real hardware is probably not humanly noticeable (except maybe for some Japanese bullet hell or Guitar Hero players) so there is no disadvantage anymore.
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Old 01 December 2017, 15:46   #117
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Tomorrow the voting for our Season 11 league points system will begin.

We've decided to let you rate the four systems 50/50 (current system), 75/25, Fixed-26 and Super 7 between 0 and 3 points each.
A vote could look like this:

50/50: 3
75/25: 1
Fixed-26: 3
Super 7: 0


To demonstrate how well the systems work I've looked at the results of five games from season 10. Here's how the results would've been for 75/25, Fixed-26 and Super 7:











Gotta say 75/25 doesn't seem to work as well as 50/50 after all.
But Fixed-26 and Super 7 work pretty well.

Both are variations of Fixed-16:

Fixed-26 gives the top 16 10 points more so that there are 10 more places with different points.

Super 7 gives the top 7 the same fixed points they would've got in Fixed-16.
8th place and below get between 1 and 10 points - proportionally to the 7th place's score (90% and better = 10 points, less than 10% = 1 point).
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Old 01 December 2017, 16:38   #118
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To demonstrate how well the systems work I've looked at the results of five games from season 10. Here's how the results would've been for 75/25, Fixed-26 and Super 7:
I'm looking at the figures in the tables and see that they differ. I haven't bothered looking at every detail in the thread yet (and I'm way to inexperienced with leagues to conclude something from them), but aren't we missing the totals here to come to a solid conclusion?
I'm thinking the most important thing here is what the outcome would have been with the used methods? Would the top 10 be any different?
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Old 01 December 2017, 18:13   #119
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Would the top 10 be any different?
Probably not (much). But the players outside top 10 would have significantly more points which might have motivated them to invest more time and thus maybe some of them would have entered top 10 in the end (through this extra-motivation).

It can be discouraging when the leaders seem unreachable after the first three rounds.
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Old 01 December 2017, 18:54   #120
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Since there are 2 variations of the proportional system, any chance of adding an extra variant for fixed and super systems as well?
I was going to vote for fixed 21 / super 11, but neither seem to have "made the cut"
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