Amiga like computers in a shrinking market

[robinsonb5]

Originally Posted by Locutus

As phx also pointed out above. That's just Linux.

Sort of.

A few months back I was trying out some extremely memory-hungry software on Linux (https://github.com/openXC7 - it uses many Gb of RAM while compiling its chip database.)
It ate all the RAM at which point everything that wasn't actively using CPU time got paged out - which unfortunately includes the window manager, desktop environment, launchers, terminal sessions... Under those circumstances it takes minutes to regain control of the computer. Even doing a "ctrl-alt-F1, log in and kill the greedy process" takes way longer than is reasonable.)

I had a similar problem on Windows 10 a few days ago - I was editing some large images in GIMP, while a VM was running in virtualbox - ran out of RAM and GIMP triggered a swapstorm. Again, the time it takes to regain control of the machine is measured in minutes.

So what I want is basically Linux (preferably without the last 5 years' UI regressions) but with some way to "pin" UI and shell code into RAM and make sure the desktop can never be rendered unresponsive by a greedy process.

[Locutus]

Originally Posted by robinsonb5

So what I want is basically Linux (preferably without the last 5 years' UI regressions) but with some way to "pin" UI and shell code into RAM and make sure the desktop can never be rendered unresponsive by a greedy process.

UI regressions? My WM works the same as it did 10 years ago, that's such an open ended thing answered by your own desire for choice.


And your second question is doable with cgroup level swappiness and setting nice values.

[kamelito]

Originally Posted by phx

There are indeed some points I would want in an alternative computer today:

• Freedom (to do what you like, update whenever you like, own everything forever)
• Privacy (no online-coercion, no data collection in any form)
• Open platform (OS and system hardware is fully documented)
• Good games
• A nice CPU and architecture which is fun to program at low level

You get the first two, and maybe half of the third point, with any Open Source Unix (Linux, BSD) system. Modern hardware is never documented.
The Amiga was all of it.

The Raspberry PI?

[Retro1234]

Originally Posted by TCD

I think that people that wish to get away from "MS' evil monopoly" [patent pending] aren't exactly the crowd that would flock to Google's products.

While I agree to some extent i.e Google have a monopoly. We can't seem to do without these big companies. Who could live without Google, Amazon etc

And it's the big IT companies - Google, Apple, Microsoft pushing technology forward.

Meh what you gonna do?

[robinsonb5]

Originally Posted by Locutus

UI regressions? My WM works the same as it did 10 years ago, that's such an open ended thing answered by your own desire for choice.

Yeah the WM's not the problem - I mean that the UI inconsistency between applications is getting progressively worse, thanks to the creep towards client-side decoration and hamburger menus. (Not just appearance - behaviour too. On my machine a middle-click on a window's titlebar will push that window to the back. Maybe. If it's the right kind of window. Five years ago you could depend on that behaviour.)

And your second question is doable with cgroup level swappiness and setting nice values.

That's encouraging - I shall explore that. What I'm (hypothetically) trying to achieve is that sense of "having the computer's full attention" which is so characteristic of the Amiga experience.

[daxb]

Originally Posted by robinsonb5

Even doing a "ctrl-alt-F1, log in and kill the greedy process" takes way longer than is reasonable.)

You can use the OMM Killer hotkey: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Keyboard_shortcuts

We can't seem to do without these big companies. Who could live without Google, Amazon etc

I can live easily without these big companies because I never started to use any of them except using google search in the first years. If they already got you then it is more difficult to avoid them. It is more or less a choice you have to do and you have the choice.

[robinsonb5]

Originally Posted by daxb

You can use the OMM Killer hotkey: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Keyboard_shortcuts

Thanks, I didn't know about that, and it'll no doubt be useful. (Luckily I still like full-size keyboards!)

It's still a workaround to a fundamental flaw in an interactive system, though.

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by daxb

It is more or less a choice you have to do and you have the choice.

Unfortunately a huge amount of people does not have a choice, at least when it comes to Google. I'm saying this as a hardcore caveman who actively managed to avoid them for a number of years, but it's becoming increasingly impossible. The amount of jobs, schools, etc which requires you to sign up for their ecosystem with no alternatives on offer is huge and increasing steadily.


Then there's the issue of their web penetration. You really have to be a leet haxxor on steroids to try and keep your machine/browsing clean of their stuff, and it will be virtually impossible to access some sites.



And that's aside from the meta-issues which come with monopolies. Even if you somehow manage to isolate your hardware and use alternatives their (and other Big Tech companies) monopolistic clout will still allow them to make decisions and extert influence which in the long run will affect you anyway.

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by kamelito

The Raspberry PI?

Exactly, there actually is a small* market for nerdy homecomputers and the Raspberry PI is doing pretty well in this niche.
The new fifth incarnations sets it apart from other low-power, homeserver and automation boards and is targeting a customer base like the discontinued intel NUC did, while keeping the full flexibility, the Pi is famous for.

*)
they sold now 50 million boards ... about one magnitude more than all Amigas together

[Retro1234]

Who owns Raspberry PI?

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by Retro1234

Who owns Raspberry PI?

We have some in our lab. It is a nice platform to play with, and its size and price makes it suitable for many embedded applications. But it is neither complete open source - there is AFAIK a binary firmware blob.

[Retro1234]

I mean what company builds them etc

[Paul_s]

Originally Posted by Bren McGuire

here we go another wet fantasy post **sigh**

I wish someone would create a Premiership Manager style game where we can play Irving Gould steering Commodore

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by Retro1234

I mean what company builds them etc

The Raspberry Pi Foundation

[Retro1234]

Ok thanks, After a bit more looking it seems it was/is a British company and was originally intended for the Educational market, much like the BBC Micro.

I am amazed at the success of the Raspberry and the fact it's not own by some huge "evil" company is somewhat refreshing. Lets hope it stays that way.

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by Retro1234

Ok thanks, After a bit more looking it seems it was/is a British company and was originally intended for the Educational market, much like the BBC Micro.

I am amazed at the success of the Raspberry and the fact it's not own by some huge "evil" company is somewhat refreshing. Lets hope it stays that way.

Well, it is complicated. The Rasberrry Pi foundation does not "build" the CPU. The CPU comes from Qualcomc. The foundation designs the board. And Qualcomm licenses the arm core from "arm", this British company, oir rather, created a particular hardware implementation from the licensed architecture. So "arm" is not so much involved as the Silicon goes, or the low-level implementation of the CPU goes, that's all Qualcom. And the Raspi foundation is not such much involved in either of these two.

[eXeler0]

Originally Posted by Zak

Hello,

I don't know if such a question has been asked before, I couldn't find one.

You see, Apple's computer sales are declining and Apple makes it's money selling Iphones.

If we assume, Commodore would have solved all technical issues and didn't go bankcrupt in the 90's, would there even be a market today for an alternative computer like Amiga? Isn't it inevitable that the Amiga would have vanished today?

Allow me to quote myself
”The Amiga was the solution to a 1980’s problem”
As thing evolve and change over time, you need new solutions for new problems. The first iPhone was the solution to a 2000’s problem.

As we move into the future, Computational capacity and digital services are available in a more transparent way than before.
you could be playing a AAA game title without really knowing what hardware it is running on. It vould even be streaming from some cloud service etc.
So no, the need for a specific niche platform like the Amiga was in 1986 doesnt exist anymore.

If you look at niches that still exist you basically have the super high end PC master race thing where some think its a good idea to spend €2000 on a graphics card to get slightly better FPS in the games they play or something like the Raspberry Pi market where the hardware is so cheap its not a factor, its more about various fun projects you can use it for…
Most of the rest, the mainstream is a more normalized experience between PC/Mac/tablets/phones. Services are basically the same with only minor details in the ”how”… So still some room for personal preference.
Seems there always has to be 2 major opposing sides in pretty much everything humans do, so for that reason there will always be some alternative, but as things get more and more normalized it matters less and less. (for eg compare features found in Android vs ios from 15 years ago and today)
So basically, with the benefit of seeing how tech evolved, Amiga would have needed to transform into a PC compatible leader of gaming hardware, a dominant mobile platform or some low end fun platform like RPi…

[TEG]

Originally Posted by rothers

What's funny is Apple ALMOST did this in the late 90s, they had a chip designed and everything but then just decided it would be easier to go with PowerPC.

What was this chip you're referring too?

[eXeler0]

Originally Posted by TEG

What was this chip you're referring too?

To set the record straight, Apple used an ARM chip in their Newton ”message pad” back in early 90s

[bluescrn]

There was only a market for an 'alternative computer' back when custom chips for graphics/sound were a huge selling point, when they could really amplify the capabilities of a relatively weak CPU.

But now all computers are pretty much the same. ARM vs Intel doesn't matter - you've got a fast multi-core CPU, plentiful memory, dirt-cheap storage. The main differentiator is now the amount of GPU power available, the modern equivalent of those 'custom chips'. And to most people, even that doesn't matter much, as PC gamers are a diminishing audience (especially as high-end GPU prices remain at levels that make console gaming very appealing)

Even operating systems are 'good enough' these days (stable and responsive multitasking, combatible with most hardware), and fairly interchangeable for most users. When the most-used software is a web browser, it doesn't really matter if you're on Windows, Linux, or Mac.

The only real 'alternative computer' niche was the one the Raspberry Pi found, an inexpensive device somewhere between a microcontroller board (e.g. Arduino) and a full-on PC. Small, cheap, low-power, you can throw one on the network as an ad-blocker (PiHole), and another on a 3D Printer (Octoprint), and have another sat by the TV to run emulators.

The real worry these days is that the 'real computer with a real OS', along with the skills to use them effectively, is dying off in a world dominated by locked-down and touchscreen-centric 'content consumption devices'. For a child first exposed to a computing device, there's just so much competing for their attention, and most of it not exactly educational.

Different world to the 8-bit 80s, where you booted up to BASIC and had to learn to use the command line just to load a game, or the Amiga years, where you were likely to end up fiddling with something like DPaint or Octamed, they were exciting and new, and you didn't have the web, let alone social media competing for attention.

So the real issue may be getting kids interested in coding or other forms of creative computing once they've grown up parented by their mobile device...