Kick Off games vs SensibleSoccer games

[StarEye]

It's a wee bit elitist to say that Sensible appealed to those who couldn't get into Kick Off. Kick Off isn't a "hardcore soccer game" any more than Sensible is. Dunno how you got that idea. Sure, Sensible is easier to pick up and play, but that goes for games like Civilzation and Pirates! too. I think the "easy to get into, hard to master" rule applies to Sensible.

On a sidenote, I had played Kick Off a lot when I played my first game of Sensible. Kick Off 2 was me and my brothers favourite two-player game, and we had gotten pretty good if I can say so myself. Actually, when I play it today, I have no way of getting back into form the way I was back then, when we recorded Golden Goals and such. I also played a lot of Player Manager. But when I got Sensible Soccer (the first one ever), I liked the game, but I had my doubts it would be as popular as Kick Off. I was pretty wrong of course, because giving it some time I turned myself into one of the biggest fans of Sensible ever. So... it's not because Kick Off 2 is a harder game people like Sensible better. That's stretching it.

[Freakyweakywoo]

Kick off started it all, but in the end I just loved SWOS. I think Kick Off 2: The Final Whistle was so bad it pushed me over to Sensi, soooo many bugs.

[manicx]

Originally Posted by StarEye

So... it's not because Kick Off 2 is a harder game people like Sensible better. That's stretching it.

Well, I said that SS is easier to get into. This means that there are certain thing like the view perspective and controls that make it easier for people to get in the game. When I first played KO2, I was destroyed by the CPU. When I first played SS, I fought for it and I think I lost 2-1 or something. Also, some people find it difficult to get used to KO2's speed.

Overall, both games are excellent. Although I am a big KO2 fan and I played both games and have good laugh with both. And yes, only the Amiga made this possible. 2P gaming at its greatest.

[JudasEZT]

There are many things I dont like in SWOS.

The ball bounces like a melon, it falls like a melon and make just two bounces. More over the effect when you shoot its more unrealistic than KickOff/Goal! in KickOffs there are smthing like "in/middle/out" trajectories .. but in SS there isnt trajectory "in" or is unappreciable.

The head-shoot is the hardest to simulate in this soccer games, because they are fast (not like today 3d soccers and his animations). I guess the way its resolved in swos bets for the spectacle.. but when you play various matches you surprise yourself with that every shoot with the head yo do with your player is gliding forward.. very amazing,. the first three times. next that is abit ridiculous. also is ridiculous that he flies lot of meters, maybe too many.

Passing is boring. and perfect, the ball goes exacly to the player,. this do not happens on KickOffs/Goal! in these works much more naturally.

The pitch dimensions, are invented. the distance between central circle and areas are enourmous, and the circle and area are very small and with different proportions to reality.

Tactics. I think this is the worst thing of all. The defenders are just one step forward the goalkeeper. The three lines are completely separated. theres no real interaction between them. I guess they even dont know personally.
In normal plays practically never a midfield can arrive to the area, and lets not talk about a defender.
Moreover the action hardly benefits to play in the bands, you always have to tend to enter by the center.
These things I suppossed you could attenuate in tactics screen selecting between "attack-deffend" levels.. but I never noted difference.

[darkwave]

I played Kick Off a hell of a lot and became quite a loyal dovotee of the series. I didn't think football games could get any better than Kick Off 2 and it still is a great game. I couldn't understand all the fuss over the new kid Sensible Soccer. Then I played it. It wasn't Kick Off.

It was better. Personally I find Sensible a much smoother and enjoyable game to play. Going back to Kick Off now just feels dated. Sensible is still as playable as it ever was. One of those games that will always stay great, not because it's the perfect football sim, but because it's one of the most playable games of the 16 bit era.

[StarEye]

Originally Posted by JudasEZT

There are many things I dont like in SWOS.

The head-shoot is the hardest to simulate in this soccer games, because they are fast (not like today 3d soccers and his animations). I guess the way its resolved in swos bets for the spectacle.. but when you play various matches you surprise yourself with that every shoot with the head yo do with your player is gliding forward.. very amazing,. the first three times. next that is abit ridiculous. also is ridiculous that he flies lot of meters, maybe too many.

Passing is boring. and perfect, the ball goes exacly to the player,. this do not happens on KickOffs/Goal! in these works much more naturally.

You mention the headshot. It is possible to do a normal headshot too. Instead of holding the joystick to one direction THEN press the button, you can push the button and if you do it on time, you can see the man jump. Then just push the joystick in the direction you want the ball to go just before his head touches the ball. Very different approach, but works like a charm. You do the bicycle kick the same way, but push the joystick in the opposite direction of the player instead, before the ball touches his feet.
You mentioned the player flying way too far too. That was a fault in the earlier versions. It's much better in the last version, where he stops when he touches the ball. And if you pick on these little things, look at the keeper in Kick Off 2. How many meters can he actually throw himself after the ball?

To know Sensi, you must go in the deep. It may look simple on the top, but dig a little and you'll find a very deep soccer game actually. The problem is people decide to play just to score goals. If you decide to learn how to use these little extra tricks to the fullest, I'm sure you'll see how good Sensi can be. It's more fun to play when you know the features.

Also about the passing. It's simple, but works like a charm. In Kick Off or Goal, it works just the same way, but you'll have to hold the button instead, just before the ball reaches the other players feet. They work exactly the same as in Sensi. If you lose the ball in Kick Off, it's because you can't see your player because of the unnecessarily big football field with extremely zoomed in view. I don't think losing possession of the ball because of bad camera control is a feature, it's more of a fault.

I've played Kick Off a lot. I've played SWOS even more. Kick Off is a great game, but hardly because of deep gameplay. It's more an arcade game, with physics of a pinball game from Digital Illusions (which would be a good thing if it was a pinball game).

[manicx]

Originally Posted by StarEye

Also about the passing. It's simple, but works like a charm. In Kick Off or Goal, it works just the same way, but you'll have to hold the button instead, just before the ball reaches the other players feet. They work exactly the same as in Sensi. If you lose the ball in Kick Off, it's because you can't see your player because of the unnecessarily big football field with extremely zoomed in view. I don't think losing possession of the ball because of bad camera control is a feature, it's more of a fault.

No, passing is not the same. We recently discovered that each player in KO2 has shitload of characteristics that influence the passing. This means that say no3, Curtis is not as good in passing as say no4, Wells. What JudasEZT said is that passes in SS are pixel perfect. In KO2, passing depends on the player just like in real life. In KO2 there is a scanner that let's you see where your players are. The way the players are positioned in the field in SS is not very clever. The field is split into boxes where each player is allowed to move in. The only way to get him out of this box is get control of the player. In KO2, you can use the so called 'player switching'. In other words, by moving your joystick to the right direction, you can gain control of a player other than the one that may be where the ball goes. In such way you can control the player you want even if he is not close to the ball. This is a unique feature and needs mastering the tectics in KO2 as well as the use of the scanner. Took me about 11 years to master this thing and become one of the best defenders in the world in KO2.

I've played Kick Off a lot. I've played SWOS even more. Kick Off is a great game, but hardly because of deep gameplay. It's more an arcade game, with physics of a pinball game from Digital Illusions (which would be a good thing if it was a pinball game).

KO2 is great because of its gameplay. Don't compare SWOS with KO2. SWOS can only be compared to Player Manager. The equivalent to KO2 is the original SS. SS is also an arcade game. The physics in KO2 are unique, it has nothing to do with a pinball game unless you realise how to use all of its features. As I said, even 14 years later from KO2's release, we discover new things about the game with the help of people like Dino Dini and Steve Screech. We recently published a full list of all the characteristics of each player in the game. You can always find the charcteristics of each player here.

[StarEye]

SWOS can not be compared to Player Manager. Kick Off 2 should be compared to SWOS, because after all, both are pure soccer games. Player Manager is a pure manager game. SWOS is a soccer game AND a manager game. But as we're comparing the gameplay mechanics, SWOS and Kick Off 2 can be compared without doubt.

The passes in SWOS also depends on the quality of the player. Also, the heading, shooting, dribling, tacling, all depends on on the players skills, just like in real life. I don't mind people liking Kick Off 2 better, but when the put themselves above SWOS lovers because Kick Off 2 is a harder game to get into (but equally difficult to master) I have to disagree. Also, when they attack SWOS for not having features that Kick Off 2 has when it does, it is only right to correct them.

After all, both are excellent football games, but I think Kick Off has aged a bit. Really, I bought the new one too (kick off 2002), and it's really very much the same game but with a few more features. I still prefer Kick Off 2 over the new one though, but overall I like SWOS even better than everything else. That's doesn't mean Kick Off 2 doesn't deserves a place in the top 10 most important amiga games.



oh, and just so we don't drag this into the fullest, let's give up the argument there, shall we?

[manicx]

Originally Posted by StarEye

SWOS can not be compared to Player Manager. Kick Off 2 should be compared to SWOS, because after all, both are pure soccer games. Player Manager is a pure manager game. SWOS is a soccer game AND a manager game. But as we're comparing the gameplay mechanics, SWOS and Kick Off 2 can be compared without doubt.

Are you sure you 've ever played Player Manager? Why should be called PLAYER Manager? It's not a pure management game. You can be a manager and you can also play the games using your joystick. As I said, SWOS and Player manager, SS and KO2.

The passes in SWOS also depends on the quality of the player. Also, the heading, shooting, dribling, tacling, all depends on on the players skills, just like in real life. I don't mind people liking Kick Off 2 better, but when the put themselves above SWOS lovers because Kick Off 2 is a harder game to get into (but equally difficult to master) I have to disagree. Also, when they attack SWOS for not having features that Kick Off 2 has when it does, it is only right to correct them.

After all, both are excellent football games, but I think Kick Off has aged a bit. Really, I bought the new one too (kick off 2002), and it's really very much the same game but with a few more features. I still prefer Kick Off 2 over the new one though, but overall I like SWOS even better than everything else. That's doesn't mean Kick Off 2 doesn't deserves a place in the top 10 most important amiga games.



oh, and just so we don't drag this into the fullest, let's give up the argument there, shall we?

I agree 101% with you. The biggest attack in history of the KO series-SS series has been from my friend ( ) Stuart Cambell to any Amiga user out there who liked KO2. As I said, they are different games for different people. The only common thing is that they are football games. Although SS developers have been inspired heavily by KO2, SS is a completely different game to me. The distinction has to be made though:

SWOS and Player manager, SS, KO2, Goal!.

[StarEye]

Originally Posted by manicx

Are you sure you 've ever played Player Manager? Why should be called PLAYER Manager? It's not a pure management game. You can be a manager and you can also play the games using your joystick. As I said, SWOS and Player manager, SS and KO2

Sensible World of Soccer is a football game with a management part implemented. Player Manager is a manager game with a football game implemented. There IS a difference. SWOS improved on SS like Kick Off 2 improved on Kick Off. If you want, SWOS can be compared to Kick Off 2 and Player Manager put together, because that's what SWOS is. Two different games. Not like Player Manager, which is one game. SWOS isn't a spin-off of SS, it's a sequel.

And Player Manager was cool as hell too, that's why I was so happy to see that SWOS had a management part. But it's just a seperate part, not the main part of the game. The main part is actually playing, the same way Player Manager is mainly about managing. I compare Player Manager to the likes of Championship Manager and Premier Manager (now there's a game I haven't played in a while). The difference is that you can play yourself, but that's all.

[Bombjacker]

Amateurs play SWOS. Professionals play Kick OFF 2/Goal!

[Peanutuk]

Originally Posted by Bombjacker

Amateurs play SWOS. Professionals play Kick OFF 2/Goal!

A Professional what?

[Dizzy]

Originally Posted by Peanutuk

A Professional what?

Whore....

he must be one of Freds

[Critter]

Swos Is Soccer King Of Chaos

[Hammy]

Voted for kick off because i hate it when i get a box of amiga games and half of them are differant revisions of SWOS, Sensi, Sensibe World Of Soccer, Sensible Soccer
bloody annoying :P

Plus We all like Dino Dini right?

[Bombjacker]

Although there were lots of unnecessary expansion disks for the Kick Off games and aprt from extra time for Kick Off, they all largely sucked. But at least there is significant differences between Kick Off, Kick Off 2 and Goal!, which the same can't be said of all the different version of SWOS. There may have added a management aspect after the original Sensi Soccer, but the actual playing of football never changed much.

[Peanutuk]

The difference on the pitch between Sensible Soccer and SWOS is quite pronounced - they are very different games.

[StarEye]

Yeah, the difference ins pretty big. I'm guessing if you just look at the pictures there's not much difference, but that goes for Kick Off vs Kick Off 2 too. If you kept up with the Sensible Soccer series, you will know there's significant improvements in gameplay over the differerent games. The game actually changed a lot more than Kick Off.

Oh and Goal! shouldn't even be included in the Kick Off series. But you could add a lot of the extra Kick Off games, and why do you keep forgetting Kick Off 3 and Kick Off 96 and such? They are a part of the series. Which means there also was a lot of Kick Off games. Sure the gameplay changed a LOT after Kick Off 2, but was it for the better? At least, Sensible only got better. If only the original Kick Off 2 was improved upon instead of completely giving up what made the game so good.

[Peanutuk]

Wasn't Kick Off 96 one of the worst games ever to be released on the Amiga?

Amiga Power Issue 65 Review:
page 1
page 2
page 3
page 4

[StarEye]

Yeah, but I don't recommend Amiga Power for unbiased opinions on Kick Off though