why Sonic wasn't possible on stock Amiga?

mikele · 25 January 2012, 13:28

I was Amiga and Sega Genesis owner at the same time and imho those attempts to bring "Sonic killer" to Amiga resulted in rather mediocre games that didn't match the Sonic in terms of speed, graphics detail, level design. What's funny according to documentary film Yuji Naka had to slow down game's speed a bit before final release!

What was 16 bit Sega's advantage over Amiga? Better skilled dev teams & huge budgets? Direct access to storage (cartridge)? Why wasn't plain vanilla A500 able to do sth like that?

Mequa · 25 January 2012, 13:41

The likes of Kid Chaos showed Sonic-style parallax scrolling was possible on a vanilla A500, although other platformers such as Zool 2 were less impressive in this regard.

I'm not sure what graphical tricks the between-level stages such as above used on the Genesis/Mega Drive.
The tunnel sequences in A500 Stardust seemed similar though. Also remember A500 was older than the Genesis/Mega Drive.

Retro1234 · 25 January 2012, 14:09

7*8 dual playfield come on that was a bit crappy but it was possible and nice avatar

hitchhikr · 25 January 2012, 16:27

Sonic 1 & 2 were ported to the Master System and the GameGear and Sonic Pocket to the Neo Geo Pocket so a downgraded version of the MegaDrive opus would have been possible on Amiga 500.

The reasons you describe + the tiles based video engine which is an advantage for platform games, also the MegaDrive could display 80 16x16 masked sprites and 2 independent playfields with a palette of 64 (3 bit like the ST) colors at full frame rate, that was the fixed specs of the machine, programmers had to play around this and didn't have to waste time in ultra-optimized sprites engine but could, for example, focus on programming proper physics engine like in Sonic.
Also they could move big blocks on the screen made of these 80 sprites and make the background more interactive which was impossible on Amiga.

On Amiga there was no real fixed specs: a lot depended on the program's optimization and the programmers smartness, of course the time spent on optimizing wasn't spent on improving the gameplay and it showed in many Amiga games which were dashed off in term of gameplay (even if they looked and sounded rather good).

seuden · 25 January 2012, 17:08

Sonic 2 was ported to the Master System?

They're totally different games and afair so are the Sonic 1's.

hitchhikr · 25 January 2012, 17:21

On Master System:

- Sonic Blast
- Sonic Chaos
- Sonic Spinball
- Sonic The Hedgehog
- Sonic The Hedgehog 2

On Game Gear:

- Sonic Blast
- Sonic Chaos
- Sonic Labyrinth
- Sonic Spinball
- Sonic The Hedgehog
- Sonic The Hedgehog - Triple Trouble
- Sonic The Hedgehog 2

Sonic 1 on the Master System (runs at full frame rate on the console):

[ Show youtube player ]

Sonic 2 (also runs at full framerate):

[ Show youtube player ]

s2325 · 25 January 2012, 17:54

I think Sonic Labyrinth is bad joke, same as choppy Sonic Spinball for Master System.

Codetapper · 25 January 2012, 19:44

Don't forget that Sega didn't allow Sonic to be ported to the Amiga aswell! Rumours are that US Gold were going to convert it, but if that was the case it probably would have gone to Tiertex and then we would all be complaining about what a lousy version of Sonic we had on the Amiga!

P-J · 25 January 2012, 20:20

Apples and oranges really. The fact that they were both 16-bit is a red herring. The Megadrive was designed from the ground up to play games and shift lots of data round the screen quickly. The Amiga was designed for spreadsheets. Not saying the Amiga didn't have amazing games, but the MD hardware was designed with solely gaming in mind.

C64 vs Master System is another example.

khph_re · 25 January 2012, 21:01

the amiga was designed as a games machine, and changed to a computer after the console crash. It was obviousy a pretty good one, as it was still getting games nine years after launch.

I think sonic would nave been possible, but perhaps not quite as pretty. Less colours in the sprites and backgrounds, but more added for the sky using the copper.

Galahad/FLT · 25 January 2012, 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-J

Apples and oranges really. The fact that they were both 16-bit is a red herring. The Megadrive was designed from the ground up to play games and shift lots of data round the screen quickly. The Amiga was designed for spreadsheets. Not saying the Amiga didn't have amazing games, but the MD hardware was designed with solely gaming in mind.

C64 vs Master System is another example.

Incorrect, the Amiga was originally designed as a console, it was only Commodores intervention that it be turned into a fully fledged computer to replace the C64 that changed things.

The Amiga could have been capable of doing something akin to Sonic, but unfortunately, it wouldn't have gone to the right people to be converted.

As Codetapper said, originally Sega were going to licence Sonic when it first came out, it was only after some thought that they opted to withdraw the licence because they wanted to compete with Nintendo who had their own series, i.e. Mario which was platform specific.

If US Gold had converted Sonic, it frankly would have done more harm than good to the Amiga, in fact if it had been converted by US Gold or any of its usual stables of development teams (Aka showers of shit!), it quite possibly could have done the Amiga massive harm.

Streetfighter 2 was bad enough, but that was late enough in the Amigas lifespan that it didn't really matter, but if Sonic had been released on Amiga in 1990 near the time of the Megadrive version, it would have been very bad for Amiga.

Neo were not established at that point, Team 17 were not established enough at that point, Factor 5 might have been capable of taking on the job and turning out a decent version, maybe at a stretch some of the guys in Thalion, but really, if Sonic was to have been done, it would have been better released later in its life as there was then plenty of programmers out there that were very capable of squeezing the best out of the Amiga.

CU_AMiGA · 25 January 2012, 22:57

as far as i know both c64 and amiga were both designed with gaming in mind! wots the point of having cutting edge hardware if its for spreadsheets?! lol

Amiga1992 · 26 January 2012, 00:24

Sonic wasn't possible in the Amiga because Sega wouldn't license it. Simple as that.
Any game is possible in any platform, given the right compromises are made.

Samurai_Crow · 26 January 2012, 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by hitchhikr

Sonic 1 on the Master System (runs at full frame rate on the console):

[ Show youtube player ]

Sonic 2 (also runs at full framerate):

[ Show youtube player ]

Those versions of Sonic didn't use parallax like the MegaDrive/Genesis version did. An Amiga could easily have done what the Master System did. It probably would have even sounded better and definitely would have been able to keep up.

One thing about the MegaDrive/Genesis though that the Amiga was better at was the fact that Amiga had 12-bit Digital to Analog conversion for a maximum of 4096 colors. The Megadrive/Genesis only had a 9-bit DAC for only 512 colors max.

What really killed the Amiga was that the AGA chipset was too little too late. The blitter was still 16-bit on the 32-bit system and the blitter's clock-speed was still 3.5 MHz when the display and bus-control portions of the chip were 28 MHz clock-speed. It's as if the AGA chipset never got finished before it reached the market and was rushed at the last minute as an after-thought. AGA could have wiped the floor with the Genesis/Megadrive if it came out sooner even in its existing state.

Cammy · 26 January 2012, 01:02

I hope someone can prove that the Amiga can pull off a decent version of Sonic this year.

Oh, and those Master System Sonic games run smoother on my Amiga than they do in theYouTube videos. AmiMasterGear rocks!

Retrofan · 26 January 2012, 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cammy

I hope someone can prove that the Amiga can pull off a decent version of Sonic this year...

I thought that you and Rebel had something to be with the attempts for the incredible Amiga version of it... http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?...ighlight=sonic

KevG · 26 January 2012, 01:24

Quote:

I hope someone can prove that the Amiga can pull off a decent version of Sonic this year.

Patience Cammy....

I'm back on the job ;-)

Retrofan · 26 January 2012, 01:27

That looks too good to be true...

gibs · 26 January 2012, 01:36

Of course an Amiga can do it !!!
If we had zool2, why can't it be possible?
It's just that it was for the sea platform as gear of wars is for the xbox360 and not the ps3.
You know what I mean.

P-J · 26 January 2012, 01:37

I don't know what this debate is about any more. You've got one guy talking about a 1:1 conversion, and others talking about converting lesser version. It's either one or the other. Obviously the game is feasible if you strip it back, but I don't think that's what the OP is alluding to.

25 January 2012, 13:28	#1
mikele Registered User Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: poland Posts: 307	why Sonic wasn't possible on stock Amiga? I was Amiga and Sega Genesis owner at the same time and imho those attempts to bring "Sonic killer" to Amiga resulted in rather mediocre games that didn't match the Sonic in terms of speed, graphics detail, level design. What's funny according to documentary film Yuji Naka had to slow down game's speed a bit before final release! What was 16 bit Sega's advantage over Amiga? Better skilled dev teams & huge budgets? Direct access to storage (cartridge)? Why wasn't plain vanilla A500 able to do sth like that?

25 January 2012, 16:27	#4
hitchhikr Registered User Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: somewhere else Posts: 511	Sonic 1 & 2 were ported to the Master System and the GameGear and Sonic Pocket to the Neo Geo Pocket so a downgraded version of the MegaDrive opus would have been possible on Amiga 500. The reasons you describe + the tiles based video engine which is an advantage for platform games, also the MegaDrive could display 80 16x16 masked sprites and 2 independent playfields with a palette of 64 (3 bit like the ST) colors at full frame rate, that was the fixed specs of the machine, programmers had to play around this and didn't have to waste time in ultra-optimized sprites engine but could, for example, focus on programming proper physics engine like in Sonic. Also they could move big blocks on the screen made of these 80 sprites and make the background more interactive which was impossible on Amiga. On Amiga there was no real fixed specs: a lot depended on the program's optimization and the programmers smartness, of course the time spent on optimizing wasn't spent on improving the gameplay and it showed in many Amiga games which were dashed off in term of gameplay (even if they looked and sounded rather good). Last edited by hitchhikr; 25 January 2012 at 16:57.

25 January 2012, 21:01	#10
khph_re Registered User Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Northampton/UK Posts: 524	the amiga was designed as a games machine, and changed to a computer after the console crash. It was obviousy a pretty good one, as it was still getting games nine years after launch. I think sonic would nave been possible, but perhaps not quite as pretty. Less colours in the sprites and backgrounds, but more added for the sky using the copper. Last edited by khph_re; 25 January 2012 at 21:15.

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25 January 2012, 13:41	#2
Mequa Registered User Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: UK Posts: 497	The likes of Kid Chaos showed Sonic-style parallax scrolling was possible on a vanilla A500, although other platformers such as Zool 2 were less impressive in this regard. I'm not sure what graphical tricks the between-level stages such as above used on the Genesis/Mega Drive. The tunnel sequences in A500 Stardust seemed similar though. Also remember A500 was older than the Genesis/Mega Drive.

25 January 2012, 14:09	#3
Retro1234 Phone Homer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: 5150 Posts: 5,773	7*8 dual playfield come on that was a bit crappy but it was possible and nice avatar

25 January 2012, 17:08	#5
seuden uber cool demi god Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Kent/England Posts: 2,073	Sonic 2 was ported to the Master System? They're totally different games and afair so are the Sonic 1's.

25 January 2012, 17:21	#6
hitchhikr Registered User Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: somewhere else Posts: 511	On Master System: - Sonic Blast - Sonic Chaos - Sonic Spinball - Sonic The Hedgehog - Sonic The Hedgehog 2 On Game Gear: - Sonic Blast - Sonic Chaos - Sonic Labyrinth - Sonic Spinball - Sonic The Hedgehog - Sonic The Hedgehog - Triple Trouble - Sonic The Hedgehog 2 Sonic 1 on the Master System (runs at full frame rate on the console): [ Show youtube player ] Sonic 2 (also runs at full framerate): [ Show youtube player ]

25 January 2012, 17:54	#7
s2325 Zone Friend Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Gargore Age: 43 Posts: 17,789	I think Sonic Labyrinth is bad joke, same as choppy Sonic Spinball for Master System.

25 January 2012, 19:44	#8
Codetapper 2 contact me: email only! Join Date: May 2001 Location: Auckland / New Zealand Posts: 3,182	Don't forget that Sega didn't allow Sonic to be ported to the Amiga aswell! Rumours are that US Gold were going to convert it, but if that was the case it probably would have gone to Tiertex and then we would all be complaining about what a lousy version of Sonic we had on the Amiga!

25 January 2012, 20:20	#9
P-J Registered User Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Moorpark, California Age: 44 Posts: 1,153	Apples and oranges really. The fact that they were both 16-bit is a red herring. The Megadrive was designed from the ground up to play games and shift lots of data round the screen quickly. The Amiga was designed for spreadsheets. Not saying the Amiga didn't have amazing games, but the MD hardware was designed with solely gaming in mind. C64 vs Master System is another example.

25 January 2012, 22:57	#12
CU_AMiGA Banned Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Exeter Age: 38 Posts: 970	as far as i know both c64 and amiga were both designed with gaming in mind! wots the point of having cutting edge hardware if its for spreadsheets?! lol

26 January 2012, 00:24	#13
Amiga1992 Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ? Posts: 19,645	Sonic wasn't possible in the Amiga because Sega wouldn't license it. Simple as that. Any game is possible in any platform, given the right compromises are made.

26 January 2012, 01:02	#15
Cammy Registered User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Tasmania, Australia Age: 39 Posts: 1,189	I hope someone can prove that the Amiga can pull off a decent version of Sonic this year. Oh, and those Master System Sonic games run smoother on my Amiga than they do in theYouTube videos. AmiMasterGear rocks!

26 January 2012, 01:27	#18
Retrofan Ruler of the Universe Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Lanzarote/Spain Posts: 6,185	That looks too good to be true...

26 January 2012, 01:36	#19
gibs Banned Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: france Posts: 932	Of course an Amiga can do it !!! If we had zool2, why can't it be possible? It's just that it was for the sea platform as gear of wars is for the xbox360 and not the ps3. You know what I mean.

26 January 2012, 01:37	#20
P-J Registered User Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Moorpark, California Age: 44 Posts: 1,153	I don't know what this debate is about any more. You've got one guy talking about a 1:1 conversion, and others talking about converting lesser version. It's either one or the other. Obviously the game is feasible if you strip it back, but I don't think that's what the OP is alluding to.

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