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Old 04 September 2018, 18:28   #1
ubermick
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American users... Best monitor option for a PAL A1200 over here?

When I was a lad (and all this was fields, gerroff my lawn) this was easy. Plug miggy into the portable telly via the A520. Later, made the massive leap to a Scart cable. Easy.

Now, I live in America, and I have an A1200 winging it's way to me from England, and am a bit flummoxed at the next step. My previous A1200 from 4 years ago was using a venerable GBS-8220 as an external scandoubler into a Dell 4:3 monitor (can't for the life of me remember which one) and I'd be lying if I said it was particularly brilliant.

Obviously the 1084 would be the business, but if you think they're rare over there, should have a look over here. What few there are tend to be a bit over the top in terms of price, and would rather have a smaller monitor anyways since space is at a premium.

Currently lurking in the cupboard is a Dell Ultrasharp 1800fp from 2002. Not on the list of approved 15khz monitors, though alas. The Benq BL702A seems to be by far the most recommended, but doesn't seem to be a monitor sold over here - all the options I see are from England, and with P&P end up being ~$200 or more. For less than that I can get an Indivision Mk2.

End of the day, be nice to just go for something I know will work. I know someone is selling the 23pin to VGA cables on Amibay, but what I'd get a bit miffed at is buying a cable, and then ending up going through monitor after monitor via ebay and local sales trying to find something that works, only to end up with an Indivision Mk2 anyways.

Last edited by ubermick; 04 September 2018 at 18:37.
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Old 04 September 2018, 21:32   #2
desiv
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Tricky...
I do use a GBS-8220 on my 1200.
But I went for real 1084's for my A1000.
I'd say you should swing by Goodwill and look for a cheap VGA monitor that is also a TV, as there is a likelihood it will sync down to 15khz.
But no guarantees there, and you are still talking LCD, not CRT. There is a difference. ;-)

At least you are in the best area in the US to keep an eye out for 1084 monitors. Bay Area seems to have more than other parts of the country.

Good luck..
(I broke down and bought/traded for real 1084s. I couldn't find a decent verifiable replacement monitor.)
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Old 04 September 2018, 22:45   #3
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Tricky...
DESIV!!!!

You will not remember me in the least, but I certainly do you - you were a massive help a few years ago over on Amibay when I got my previous A1200 (and even sorted me for an external floppy)

Hope you're doing well.

Alas CRT just isn't on the cards, my office is already crammed to bursting with various bits and pieces, the desk where this will live won't accommodate a big clunky one.

I'm starting to lean Indivision Mk2, they can be had for about $140 direct from Indivision, since we don't have to pay the VAT. By the time I buy the (quality) 23 pin to VGA cable, plus an "approved" 15khz LCD monitor on ebay I'm not far off that amount anyways.
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Old 04 September 2018, 22:59   #4
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I have Dell SR2320L monitor and I think it works with all Amiga modes.
I could verify it if you want to know more.
There is a thread somewhere on EAB that lists compatible secret monitors.
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Old 05 September 2018, 01:06   #5
ubermick
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I have Dell SR2320L monitor and I think it works with all Amiga modes.
I could verify it if you want to know more.
There is a thread somewhere on EAB that lists compatible secret monitors.
Cheers for that,

I probably just need a spot of knowledge or awareness. I'm stuck in the PAL/NTSC mindset where that's more applicable to CRT screens and televisions. Keep having the worry that "yeah, that monitor works in Europe, but probably not here" despite the fact that computer monitors, as long as they're 50/60 hz and are the right voltage, should be fine.
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Old 05 September 2018, 03:40   #6
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I don't have a PAL Amiga but I have used an Amiga 23pin to scart cable connected to a SCART to HDMI converter box with my A500. I think the SCART to HDMI converter was a little over $30 on Amazon. I have a GBS-8200 also that I have used.

I bought my BENQ BL702A from Italy, was kind of expensive to import it.
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Old 05 September 2018, 06:37   #7
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I just checked my Dell SR2320L, all modes in NTSC, PAL, Multiscan work on it. The interlaced modes flicker a lot, so may not be usable in Workbench mode.
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Old 05 September 2018, 09:33   #8
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I just checked my Dell SR2320L, all modes in NTSC, PAL, Multiscan work on it. The interlaced modes flicker a lot, so may not be usable in Workbench mode.
The interlace mode on my A500 flickers badly on my BENQ BL702A also, it also looks fuzzy. Best option in my opinion is to only use interlace modes with a flicker fixer.
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Old 05 September 2018, 15:12   #9
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I strongly advise not getting anything other than a CRT. And a modern one, not an old Commodore monitor. Surely some CRT TV's over there support 50hz (it does not necessarily need to support PAL, as long as it has RGB or YUV/Component inputs).
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Old 05 September 2018, 17:11   #10
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Ebay usually has lots of Sony PVM CRT monitors listed. I have a smaller 8"one for playing with my Toaster setup, they can get expensive at larger sizes, more importantly though, Ubermick said he does not have room for a CRT.
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Old 05 September 2018, 17:15   #11
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Surely some CRT TV's over there support 50hz and have RGB or YUV/Component inputs).
You'd be surprised. They don't have RGB!!
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Old 05 September 2018, 17:52   #12
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You'd be surprised. They don't have RGB!!
There definately were CRT TVs sold here that had RGB inputs, even some 4:3 models did and probably most HD CRT televisions would have had them, doesn't matter anyway if there isn't enough room to use one.
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Old 05 September 2018, 21:37   #13
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I use a Dell 2001FP, and it's pretty great. But it's biggest drawback is that it doesn't remember the position of the screen, after a resolution change.

I also use an NEC Multisync EA241WM, which is super. But expensive.

I recommend (an earlier model of the) Dell. It's a nice 4:3 (proper 4:3, not 5:4) LCD monitor.
There's a few on ebay at the moment for about 30-40 euro. Not sure if they're the earlier models though.

I have a GBS-8200 too, and it's very poor in comparison to the monitors that natively sync to 15Khz.

There's a list of confirmed working monitors on AmiBay too, which could be a starting point?
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Old 05 September 2018, 22:26   #14
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Alas Mike, I'm not in Ireland any more but California. So the shipping on those monitors tends to be a bit mad, haha.

I've checked through the list, and searched fro the "top" models on ebay over here. Essentially I'm looking at $80 or so for a used monitor plus another $30 (or so) shipped for the RGB to VGA cable/adapter from Amibay. For example there's an Accusync 71V which is reported as being brilliant for the Amiga, so I'd be sorted. Thing about these modern monitors though, is that I also see people claiming they're far from perfect, that there are issues. (Like people had said the Dell 2001FP works brilliantly, but your own experience is that it's fine but has an issue or two. And even the Benq which is the "holy grail" of modern monitors that works with the Amiga, flickers badly in interlace mode.

I already have a small army of modern monitors around the place - none of them 15khz tho. And yeah, that was my experience with the GBS-8220 (I've read by the way that that's the one you want, the GBS-8200 isn't as good for the Amiga) as well, just not that great.

Given that $110 *might* work, I'm leaning more and more towards spending an extra $35 or so and getting the Indivision Mk2. I'm going to be ordering up an ACA1233n-40, and adding the scandoubler doesn't effect the shipping cost at all.
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Old 05 September 2018, 23:07   #15
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I have a BenQ BL-702A connected with the RGB cable from Amibay and it's good but not perfect.

Its main advantage is perfect synchronization in PAL (High-res or Low-res) if you spend time tuning the pixel clock. Euro72 also synchronizes well but has an odd aspect ratio. I haven't found a good pixel clock for DblPAL or DblNTSC; there's faint vertical lines with all the values I tried. So if deinterlaced modes are your thing this isn't a monitor I'd recommend.

The other minor issue is the sync drifts slightly as the Amiga warms up. In practice this means after boot there are faint vertical lines for a couple of minutes, until the chips warm up to match the pixel clock I've set up. Not a deal breaker but worth being aware of.

These are the kind of issues CRTs wouldn't have a problem with. CRTs have their own set of problems, though, whine and longevity being the main downsides for me. I did love the Microvitec GPM1701 multisync back in the day, though.
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Old 11 September 2018, 00:57   #16
ubermick
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So in terms of the 1084S... again, I'm a gobshite when it comes to the PAL/NTSC debate, but one assumes that if I find one here (and find room to set it up) it's going to be firmly an NTSC model, and give me issues with bottom of the screen chopping?
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Old 11 September 2018, 01:20   #17
desiv
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So in terms of the 1084S... again, I'm a gobshite when it comes to the PAL/NTSC debate, but one assumes that if I find one here (and find room to set it up) it's going to be firmly an NTSC model, and give me issues with bottom of the screen chopping?
No, if you are using RGB on the 1084, you don't need to worry about the PAL/NTSC thing.
My 1084ses handle PAL/NTSC fine...
They are smallish tho. LCDs in general are going to be much larger, and a decent size RGB monitor will take up LOTS of desk space.

Luckily, I'm OK with the 1084s screen size..


(Does any RGB monitor have an issue with PAL/NTSC clocking or is that only composite/s-video????)


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Old 11 September 2018, 01:35   #18
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Firstly, welcome to the Bay Area!

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Thing about these modern monitors though, is that I also see people claiming they're far from perfect, that there are issues.
Yep, that's right--there will always be "something". See if you can find a Planar 1520 monitor. It supports 15 kHz over RGB. Interlaced modes will look bad over RGB, but the monitor has a composite input that supports PAL video just fine, so you can switch over to composite input for those modes.

Honestly though, I would either try to find a 1084/2002/whatever, and if you can't, just get an Indivision. Then you can use whatever monitor you like and not have all of these hassles.

Quote:
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No, if you are using RGB on the 1084, you don't need to worry about the PAL/NTSC thing.
Correct, if using RGB then there are no problems with PAL/NTSC, other than you may have to twiddle with the vertical size control, but it'll do the 50Hz vertical refresh rate just fine.
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Old 11 September 2018, 02:19   #19
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Alas Mike, I'm not in Ireland any more but California. So the shipping on those monitors tends to be a bit mad, haha.

I've checked through the list, and searched fro the "top" models on ebay over here. Essentially I'm looking at $80 or so for a used monitor plus another $30 (or so) shipped for the RGB to VGA cable/adapter from Amibay. For example there's an Accusync 71V which is reported as being brilliant for the Amiga, so I'd be sorted. Thing about these modern monitors though, is that I also see people claiming they're far from perfect, that there are issues. (Like people had said the Dell 2001FP works brilliantly, but your own experience is that it's fine but has an issue or two. And even the Benq which is the "holy grail" of modern monitors that works with the Amiga, flickers badly in interlace mode.

I already have a small army of modern monitors around the place - none of them 15khz tho. And yeah, that was my experience with the GBS-8220 (I've read by the way that that's the one you want, the GBS-8200 isn't as good for the Amiga) as well, just not that great.

Given that $110 *might* work, I'm leaning more and more towards spending an extra $35 or so and getting the Indivision Mk2. I'm going to be ordering up an ACA1233n-40, and adding the scandoubler doesn't effect the shipping cost at all.
Boo. Why would anyone ever leave our Island??

Sucks on the monitors.

The scan doublers aren't without their own problems, or so I've read on here.
More than a few people seem to be complaining about them.

Have you ever considered an OSSC? (Or any of the other external scan doublers). I think the OSSC in particular is a little picky about which TV/monitor it connects to, but, I reckon that's the best solution.
Though, I don't own one, so, it's speculation on my part at the moment.
(It'll probably be my next purchase. And I'd definitely purchase one way before an indivision, but that's just me, and I already have 4x monitors that work at 15Khz)

I have an 8220 as well. Someone solved the biggest problem with them, ghosting, and stupid sparklies, with a square of copper tape. Interesting solution, and it seems to be a good one.

[ Show youtube player ]

Also!!
Why in gods name would you ever use interlaced, on any monitor, at all, in this day and age? I mean, I understand you're saying some (if not most) of the LCD's have problems with interlaced pictures, but, unless you just hate your eyes, I can't think of another reason to run anything interlaced!! (Well, not since 1998, and monitors bigger than 15" became available) I've also never seen any CRT where interlaced doesn't look like someone is scratching at your eyeball with sandpaper.
But, maybe that's just me

No monitor is perfect, and neither is any solution!
The Dell is super, the NEC is even better (since I can use it digitally, really nicely, with the A600 vampireII, and my PC too, as well as the Atari ST and Amiga). It's probably my favourite retro monitor, but, it too has it's flaws.

I guess, the ultimate CRT would be some of the professional broadcast monitors, but they're damn ugly, if nothing else
(And expensive, if you can find one)

I bought a philips CM8833MK2, but, that's just nostalgia. It's lovely. But I never use it. It's the size of a postage stamp, in comparison to the 24". I much prefer the LCDs these days.

~

In answer to your first question: Can you ever go back?
I don't think so.
It's fun to visit, but time marches on, in all things, none more so than technology.
You are not who you once were. The machines, sadly, are.
You have grown up, and, most modern machines, be they windows, mac or linux based, have grown up too. And we have choices now, that we never had before. I've hooked up my phone to a wireless keyboard, mouse, and wireless display. It gives a near perfect Amiga 500 experience, in the palm of your hand. And people will complain that modern machines are too complicated, but, my mam can pick up a tablet, having never used ones before, and is now happily surfing the information super highway.
(Remember when it was called that?! )

What we have now, far surpasses what we had then. And rose tinted glasses or no, the past remains, firmly, in the past.
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Old 11 September 2018, 03:33   #20
nexus
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another option for 480p/576p/720p hdmi
http://www.retrotink.com/#Products
also usually FM-TOWNS and SHARP X68000 crt monitors support 15/24/31KHz fyi if you ever want a crt that does all retro
tested that on my FM-TOWNS UX/UR's i have which allow you to use the built in monitor with other things due to the input on it
cute little 9" sony trinitron on those lol

Last edited by nexus; 11 September 2018 at 03:42.
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