Unsynchronised Scrollers

[Hewitson]

How come unsynchronised scrollers are very rarely if ever seen on the Amiga? Same question regarding scrollers that start and stop as seen in the second example. Very cool effects that didn't seem to transition over from the 64.

Examples:

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[bloodline]

Probably because the Amiga has more ways to present information than text, the Scroller was less of an effect and just used to either fill space or just give greets and contact infos.

[Hewitson]

The C64 has more ways to present information than text as well... I'd say scrollers were used equally on both machines, but for some reason the Amiga almost always has sine scrollers rather than the huge variety of different scrolling techniques seen on the 64.

Another thing rarely seen on the Amiga is of course the huge swinging logos as seen in the first example I posted. I'm assuming it could easily of handled these.

[StingRay]

Originally Posted by Hewitson

Another thing rarely seen on the Amiga is of course the huge swinging logos as seen in the first example I posted. I'm assuming it could easily of handled these.

These were used in a LOT of Amiga intros/demos in the late 80s/early 90s! The effect is anything but rare on Amiga.

[Hewitson]

Originally Posted by StingRay

These were used in a LOT of Amiga intros/demos in the late 80s/early 90s! The effect is anything but rare on Amiga.

I've seen variations of it, but don't recall any comparable to the NEC one.

[Galahad/FLT]

As Stinger has already said there were lots of them.

What you have to remember is that with the advent of modems and BBS's that were a lot more popular on Amiga than any other format other than PC, spreading new intros and demos just got a lot quicker, which means that certain effects also date a lot quicker.

Usually someone does an effect, others will either copy it wholesale to show they can do it, others will improve upon it, but at some point the improvements will cease as coders have taken that particular effect as far as it can go, and then they move onto something else.

Of course with the modem scene, an effect is seen and spread so much quicker, and so it also has less of a shelf life.

Most of the spreading on the C64 was by mail trade.

[WayneK]

I agree with Sting/Galahad, but I will say you're right about the scrollers themselves... it's quite rare to see a scroller that sort of 'shuffles' along on a little sine-list on Amiga, but these can be found in about 30% of C64 intros :P

I wonder why that effect didn't translate to Amiga when lots of the C64 guys moved across to it?

[Photon]

Originally Posted by Hewitson

The C64 has more ways to present information than text as well... I'd say scrollers were used equally on both machines, but for some reason the Amiga almost always has sine scrollers rather than the huge variety of different scrolling techniques seen on the 64.

Another thing rarely seen on the Amiga is of course the huge swinging logos as seen in the first example I posted. I'm assuming it could easily of handled these.

Well, raster splits (="unsynced scrollers" examples) are harder on C64. On Amiga, the Copper makes these trivial so that you wouldn't really consider them effects.

There are a ton of different scroller effects in Amiga demos from 1989 onwards, each more unreadable than the next I think if you don't agree, it's cos you've mostly only looked at cracktros? That would fit the "only sine scrollers" description better (but not completely).

They even got names: Tube, Screw, Corkscrew, Twister, Snurkel, Easy Ruling-scroller etc, and all the variations of plot, line, polygon, vectorball and other 3D or perspective scrollers, as well as ball scrolls of all manner.

I just can't imagine that the variety of scrollers on C64 matches Amiga.

DOC, BS1, Northstar/Fairlight and other hot 1988 groups probably have some swinging logos in their cracktros and demos, if you want to find some examples.

[Hewitson]

Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT

What you have to remember is that with the advent of modems and BBS's that were a lot more popular on Amiga than any other format other than PC, spreading new intros and demos just got a lot quicker, which means that certain effects also date a lot quicker.

Usually someone does an effect, others will either copy it wholesale to show they can do it, others will improve upon it, but at some point the improvements will cease as coders have taken that particular effect as far as it can go, and then they move onto something else.

If this is the case, then why was the same old basic sine scroller used in the majority of Amiga intros?

Originally Posted by WayneK

I agree with Sting/Galahad, but I will say you're right about the scrollers themselves... it's quite rare to see a scroller that sort of 'shuffles' along on a little sine-list on Amiga, but these can be found in about 30% of C64 intros :P

I wonder why that effect didn't translate to Amiga when lots of the C64 guys moved across to it?

That's what I'm wondering. I would love to see someone do an Amiga intro with the shuffling text. I do realise it would be far more difficult to program than it is on the 64.

Originally Posted by Photon

Well, raster splits (="unsynced scrollers" examples) are harder on C64. On Amiga, the Copper makes these trivial so that you wouldn't really consider them effects.

I disagree that raster splits are more difficult on the C64. They're very simple to do on either platform.

A raster split is hardly considered an "effect" on either system.

Originally Posted by Photon

There are a ton of different scroller effects in Amiga demos from 1989 onwards, each more unreadable than the next I think if you don't agree, it's cos you've mostly only looked at cracktros? That would fit the "only sine scrollers" description better (but not completely).

I'm aware that there is many demos with different scrolling techniques on the Amiga. Many of them being unreadable, as you say.

I should have made it more clear that I was referring to crack intros but I guess I thought it was obvious given the examples I posted.

[Photon]

Yes, if you have seen mostly crack intros from say 1988-1991, I could see how you could get that impression. Then, backbuffer duplicated spinning cubes became fashionable. Most cracktros just weren't made to impress the way intros and demos were, the game had to be released quickly and the board/phone numbers and addresses were more important. If a cracktro had a scroller and you couldn't read those, you failed.

I'm sure most cracktros were simple on the C64 too. As you say, swinging logo, and a charscroller.

[Galahad/FLT]

Originally Posted by Hewitson

If this is the case, then why was the same old basic sine scroller used in the majority of Amiga intros?

Not so. The majority as I said were variations on whoever coded a sine scroller first.

4 pixel sine scroller, 2 pixel sine scroller then 1 pixel sine scroller, then someone (like Ted/Defjam for instance) puts a massive wobbly sine on the scroller, then someone else does it mirrored, then someone else does it rotating, then someone else decides to do as many sine scrollers as the Amiga can handle smoothly, then someone does a full screen sine scroller, then someone else does a full screen sine scroller using copper reloading to give it that chunky look.

Sine scrollers were popular from the start, by 1991 they were a bit old hat, and then someone like Melon Design would use one unironically to be retro (think Zool cracktro) in 1993.

But you would always invariably see progression in the sine scrollers, it was rare for the same groups to keep releasing the same sine scroller effect without visible improvements.

What you also have to remember is that a light sourced rotating filled cube is showing off to others, a scrolly message is there ultimately to convey a message, and like Photon said, in a cracktro it had to be able to be read, the best code was usually saved up for a demo production where readability was an afterthought.

[Hewitson]

I do agree that there was a substantial amount of scrollers which had different effects such as the "wobbly" sine that you mention.

One of my favourite effects was the rotating sine scroller in Classic's intro for Brat.

I still disagree that the Amiga had more scrolling techniques than the C64, even if it did, they certainly weren't as common. Almost every single intro did it differently on the C64.

[redblade]

Originally Posted by Hewitson

How come unsynchronised scrollers are very rarely if ever seen on the Amiga? Same question regarding scrollers that start and stop as seen in the second example. Very cool effects that didn't seem to transition over from the 64.

Examples:

Love the 8x8 font in the NEC Afterburner cracktro

[Photon]

Originally Posted by Hewitson

I do agree that there was a substantial amount of scrollers which had different effects such as the "wobbly" sine that you mention.

One of my favourite effects was the rotating sine scroller in Classic's intro for Brat.

I still disagree that the Amiga had more scrolling techniques than the C64, even if it did, they certainly weren't as common. Almost every single intro did it differently on the C64.

This definitely makes me I think you've only seen cracktros on each platform, and don't know what makes a technique a technique.

If you find out, you won't have to make false claims and stick to your guns.

Why not have a look at all the awesomely varied scrollers on Amiga? Start just with Dexion Megademo 1 and 2, then maybe Northstar Megademo 2 and 3. That should give you roughly 15 different techniques.

Or look at all the awesomely varied scrollers on C64 back in the day (your claim), if you prefer.

The Amiga can do so much more than the C64 in this department that it's ridiculous, and it really was used. It's inevitable that the tally for Amiga will outnumber the C64 by 20:1 or more, I think.

Could it be that you simply haven't looked? I mean all those demos for both platforms are there, a Youtube or Janeway search away.

[Apollo]

Originally Posted by Hewitson

If this is the case, then why was the same old basic sine scroller used in the majority of Amiga intros?

Because many learned this effect from the same (Vision Factory ?) source code which was floating around?


From my perspective the first generation ('87-'89) of coders which came from C64 did a lot of scroller related effects in their early productions ('X-Large' from Spreadpoint f.ex.). When things moved on scrollers were only for greetings and stuff and have been replaced by fancy writers etc.