The Real Thing vs Emulators MCMXCVIII: The Fight Back

[Amiga1992]

If it's diferent hardware, it is NOT an Amiga.

And it's not about elitism, it's about how to experience things the right way. If you find it to be the same, your perception might be a bit off.

jmm, a heated debate. I think that if you have the system, there's no need fopr Winuaes, winfellows or whatever.

[jmmijo]

Originally posted by Akira
jmm, a heated debate. I think that if you have the system, there's no need fopr Winuaes, winfellows or whatever.

True, but there is the convenience factor for testing purposes, however I suppose the same could be said of the real thing too

I just don't have all my Amiga's up at the same time. Mostly the A3000 desktop and an souped up A500

[Unknown_K]

Originally posted by jmmijo
True, but there is the convenience factor for testing purposes, however I suppose the same could be said of the real thing too

I just don't have all my Amiga's up at the same time. Mostly the A3000 desktop and an souped up A500

So basically you dont have an AGA machine ?

I would reconnect my a500 if I had a HD for it, its more convenient to use the A1200 (that and my C128 is using the 1084 monitor at the moment).

[jmmijo]

Originally posted by Unknown_K
So basically you dont have an AGA machine ?

Yes and no.

I have a partially working A4000 that I installed into an old tower case but I hadn't noticed that the clock battery had been leaking for quite some time. Basically some of the circuit board is damaged so there are some weird problems with it now

I will most likely find another A4000 board someplace and swap out the parts I want to keep and use it this way.

[andyr]

Originally posted by Akira
If it's diferent hardware, it is NOT an Amiga.

And it's not about elitism, it's about how to experience things the right way. If you find it to be the same, your perception might be a bit off.

jmm, a heated debate. I think that if you have the system, there's no need fopr Winuaes, winfellows or whatever.

What does it matter what the hardware configuration is if the system is behaving like an Amiga and doing what an Amiga does, the way an Amiga does it. Pedantically, you are correct in saying it's not an technically an Amiga but if a system feels like, looks like, sounds like, smells like and acts like an Amiga then for all intents and and purposes that machine, while it's emulating an Amiga, is an Amiga.

What if an all singing, all dancing new Amiga was released tomorrow with brand new hardware and it used an emulator for backwards compatability (in a similar way to how the Playstation 2 runs Playstation 1 games under emulation). Older Amiga software would then be running on different hardware so would your definition of Amiga emulation change then?

I own an A500 and a souped up (not towered though) A1200. I was one of the people who stuck with Amiga for a long time before buying PC - I wasn't into the (stupid) argument of PC Vs Amiga but quite simply I liked (and still like) my Amiga and it was doing everything I wanted it to.

This was how it was until 1999, when I first played Half Life on PC. That one single program instantly made me realise just how much damage the various companies that had owned Amiga had done and just how much ground the Amiga had to make up.

Now, don't get me wrong. I obviously love the way an Amiga works or wouldn't have gone to so many lengths to have such a decent emulation set-up. I scour Aminet looking for software and tweaks + trawl the internet for the same. I have true Amiga discs around me as I type this and went out and bought Workbench 3.5. I actually like to relax by programming little useless programs on Blitz or Amos. It's a challenge to get those programs to do anything decent or useful but they were my first foray into the world of programming and they taught me a lot.

Getting back to emulation, when I first downloaded an emulator it struck me how unstable it was and how it wouldn't run even half of the stuff I tried. This situation has changed over time and now we have an emulator that is extremely stable and extremely compatible with software and as such, for me it's extremely convenient.

On a personal note, to have multiple systems set up is unfeasable at the moment and so the logical answer is to have my PC set-up and dual booting Win XP, Linux and emulating Amiga, Mac and almost every console under the sun. I also emulate Amiga on my xBox which is great because I can just chill in front of the TV playing some of my favourite games.

I suppose though, as you pointed out Akira, it is down to perception and if you feel that emulation doesn't do the Amiga justice or doesn't feel right to you then that's fair enough. I have no wish (nor energy at the moment!!!) to convert you.

I do think though that there are quite a few out there who would question your reasoning especially as Amiga emulation as we know it today is fast becoming 100% compatible with all Amiga software.

In the end though, emulation works for me and for a great many people and it doesn't for others.

It isn't worth losing any sleep over!

[plasmatron]

That one n only reason why i use UAE is that it is nearly inpossible to run old strictly 68000 stuff on my 1200 / 060 / 64MB.
90% of the stuff is crashing. I`m so sad about the fact that an 1200 mashine is not able to run this old stuff. There are definitly no 100% downgrading tool for a powerfull AMIGA. Progs like NoAGA, KillAGA or Degradder are only usefull for single file stuff sometimes. U can often run cracktros, intros or single file demos with em. So i have to use UAE and that makes me sick sometimes.
But i am still using my AMIGA for all the latest scene releases. Sure there is not very much to mention. --- But better than noving.

And of course for all my WHDLoad activity, i will only use my real lovely 1200 baby.

Maybe someone could write a serious downgrading tool someday ??? ---

[Amiga1992]

hello Andy

Originally posted by andyr
but if a system feels like, looks like, sounds like, smells like and acts like an Amiga then for all intents and and purposes that machine, while it's emulating an Amiga, is an Amiga.

Here's reason enough not to emulate. It doesn't look like an Amiga and it doesn't smell like an Amiga while it kind of acts like an Amiga (emulation is not perfect, may I remind you). As I said my perception doesn't allow me to enjoy an emulated experience more than the real thing. It's like going to a live concert or listening to the recording of that very same live concert in a CD.

What if an all singing, all dancing new Amiga was released tomorrow with brand new hardware and it used an emulator for backwards compatability (in a similar way to how the Playstation 2 runs Playstation 1 games under emulation). Older Amiga software would then be running on different hardware so would your definition of Amiga emulation change then?

No, it would not change at all. As a matter of fact the A1 runs classic Amiga software only by emulation. And IMO this is still the same as emulating on a PC to the extent that I think an A1 is, IMO, not an Amiga, even if it will natively run AmigaOS 4

I was one of the people who stuck with Amiga for a long time before buying PC - I wasn't into the (stupid) argument of PC Vs Amiga but quite simply I liked (and still like) my Amiga and it was doing everything I wanted it to.

I hear you. Me too. I ended up with a PC by accident, I wanted to update my amiga or buy a Mac. My uncle gave me a PC instead.

On a personal note, to have multiple systems set up is unfeasable at the moment and so the logical answer is to have my PC set-up and dual booting Win XP, Linux and emulating Amiga, Mac and almost every console under the sun. I also emulate Amiga on my xBox which is great because I can just chill in front of the TV playing some of my favourite games.

This is one of the excuses I dislike the most. I mean, how much space does an Amiga keyboard take? How can a place be So cluttered as to not allow an Amiga to lie below a tlevision set or somehing? I'm not talking about people with zillions of systems like Unknown_K or myself, I'm talking about people just wanting to use a single computer besides the PC, only an Amiga, which is much smaller than any PC box.

I'm not trying to convert you but I think what I say is kind of logical. Perhaps i'm way too picky

[Marlon]

"this is one of the excususes that etc..."?

What, people need an EXCUSE to use Amiga emulators now? Eliteism completely sucks, I agree with you totally that nothing beats using a real Amiga, but surely it's down to the choice of the individual? I use both, I use winUAE because sometimes it's just more damn convenient.

You'll be saying the Amiga's better than the ST next :-)

[jmmijo]

Originally posted by Marlon

You'll be saying the Amiga's better than the ST next :-)

Well, hmm, it is

Let the wars begin

Well I agree with you about Elitism and all, this really is a matter of choice but I do however agree that having the real thing is best, in fact have a few or all of the Amiga models would be ideal

[andyr]

I don't intend to start any kind of war - as my previous post says, what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another. I have no reason to try and change anyone's perception of emulation - I much prefer people have their own views.

Even if they are wrong! (THAT WAS A JOKE BTW!!!)

Regarding the 'excuse' - I didn't mean it to come across as an excuse - it's quite simply fact because I have to share a room. If anyone even breathes near my Amiga's then I have to kill them - it's as simple as that! The rule is I'm not all that bothered who uses my other stuff but they keep their hands off my Amigas. If I had my own place I would still probably emulate because I can emulate hardware I could never afford and now, would probably never find.

And I also agree that emulation isn't perfect but surely you agree that it's pretty good at the moment and that it's not going to be too long before emulation is 100% compatible.

Yes, I know the feeling that a Classic Amiga is greater than the sum of it's parts but what is it that creates that feeling? Is it the hardware and/or the software? Well, for me, there is nothing out there that comes close to Workbench and it's configurability especially considering it's age (is configurability actually a word?!) - my workbench set-up is a testament to that - 1024x768 with thousands of colours yet still instantly responsive and all using a program that was released in 1993 - 11 years ago (although my workbench says (C)1985-1999 which takes into account the 3.5 upddate (which didn't really bring all that much to the table))

I'm waffling on again.

I'm happy using emulation and so are many others. Emulation could, I suppose, be looked upon as a way to carry on the Classic Amiga name and perhaps even it's spirit for generations to come. I've used an emulated German Enigma machine online (it's not a computer but the conservation ideal's are similar) - this is a machine I would hardly have the chance to see and would have zero chance of using but emulation opened up the possibility of using and seeing how one worked.

Don't close your mind to different idea's and opinions or different ways of doing things or you may find yourself losing out in the long run.

[jmmijo]

Originally posted by andyr

Don't close your mind to different idea's and opinions or different ways of doing things or you may find yourself losing out in the long run.

I don't but I just had to press some buttons to see if Fred would join in the fray

He's probably the number one ST fan here but I'm sure others exist as well.

I never did own one but I'll most likely get one just from a retro point of view

[Amiga1992]

yabab yabba,...

About excuses... If thiswasn't an excuse why do people always mention it whenever they are told why not to use an Amiga? That's an excuse to me. if you come and tell me "I don't want to", well.. that's different, maybe worse ;D

I know yor reasons might be valid andyr, I kidn of took your comment because I have heard it many times. I've seen people with shitloads of systems set up even if this meant having little space for something else, and while I wouldn't do that, I think it shows how different people think about it.

Again, it's not elitism. Why do you think it is? I'm mainly "against" those who say the emulated thing is equal or better than the real thing, something which I think is absolutely wrong unless, as I said, you are not a picky mofo like myself. For me to have the Amiga feeling, it must come in that lovely vanilla keyboard case. Even a towered A1200 doesn't feel right (to me).

So what defines it? It's very hard methinks. A towered A1200 IS an Amiga in all senses, but having it in a foreign case puts me off.

[RetroMan]

For me it´s all about the OS .... wait ... you may say "Hell, where´s the difference between AmigaOS on WinUAE/Amithlon/whatever and AmigaOS on a "real" Amiga ???"

Well, here´s the point

On a real Amiga, you would do this, if any Programm refuses to run/work correctly : Tweak the OS so that it fits your needs and can run the Programm, like Softkickers, Degraders, Librarys, Devices, etc. .....

On an emulated Amiga you would not do this, you would for sure just quit the emu, take other settings and run the prog .... so mainly you will use a complete other Amiga

Here´s where the original Amiga Feeling ends

I won´t blame any WinUAE Users for this, there are really good reasons to use it, but IT ISN`T THE SAME

[P-J]

Originally posted by RetroMan
I won´t blame any WinUAE Users for this, there are really good reasons to use it, but IT ISN`T THE SAME

I'm in agreement with this. There's nothing worse than crashing the emulated Amiga, pressing F12 and seeing a god-awful M$ Window.

However, emulation is my only choice at the moment, at least till I get my own place.

In the argument of Real Vs. Emulated, real would win everytime. But for some, it's a trade-off that has to be made.

[khephren]

I don't feel the need to justify my use of WinUAE, but since it's come up AGAIN, I use it because...

1) It's more convienient
2) The emulator is more forgiving about shite software coding
3) No room for thousands of floppies but lots of room for thousands of DMS files

End of story.

[rattus]

I don't use WinUAE because:

1. I have a Mac, and MaxUAE sucks

2. I found a perfectly-working A1200 in the attic

and to those of you who don't like having floppy discs littering the place can just invest in a cheap laptop HD and use WHDload

[RetroMan]

Originally posted by khephren 3) No room for thousands of floppies but lots of room for thousands of DMS files

Hey I don´t use my Floppy on my Amiga more than once or twice a year

If I want to install I game, I use ADF File on my real Amiga

[spiff]

If it's diferent hardware, it is NOT an Amiga.

Even the amigas used different hardware, its like saying a500 with a one meg + kick 2.0 expansion isn’t an amiga 500 but an a500+. And let’s not forget that all the deluxe models, “tabletop” computers with separate keyboards like all the other pcs.. heck you could prol fit a pc motherboard in hem.
A500 emulation is so close that the only thing off is the floppy sounds. Once again, floppy sounds are different for each amiga model.

And then we have upgraded internet browser amigas and the rest of the accelerated.. that’s more Mac then amiga.. esp once you start sticking voodoo cards and all that in them.. And when it comes to acceleration winuae is already faster on todays Pcs then the the aMacas out there. I do like the faster experience.. why the upgrades otherwise?

I have no real need for my a500 as my emulated a500 surpasses it in all areas. I can swap games easily, I don’t need another scart in, I can change the hardware to what I feel like and I can still use the software I used before.

Now saying that emulation will never win because I don’t d stack a a500 shell (Swedish version, with the green leds, old psu, not using rfmodulator) under the telly just to get that nostalgic look or spread lots of discs over the floor… well that point no one can argue.¨

You have a point about AGA emulation, but given time that wont be a problem/point either.

[Unknown_K]

It all comes down to how hard core you are in the hobby. Lots of people are happy with some emu tweeking for each game and thats good enough. I figure since I have the cash and some space I went for the "original" experience of the real hardware.

There are alot of people playing classic PC games on new machines with all kinds of slowdown programs and shitty sound so this emulation vs real thing fight isnt limited to the amiga scene.

[jmmijo]

Originally posted by Unknown_K

There are alot of people playing classic PC games on new machines with all kinds of slowdown programs and shitty sound so this emulation vs real thing fight isnt limited to the amiga scene.

True, but it's much more vocal and antagonistic with the Amiga commmunity