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Old 13 April 2020, 22:01   #41
Amigajay
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Originally Posted by utri007 View Post
From 1993 - > majority of Amiga hobbyist had a Amiga 1200 and at least 68030 accelerator. Somewhere 2005 - 2010 there started to be some "new comers" who had only Amiga 500, some of them started to thing that boxes and polys are important part of their Amiga hobby.
Don’t believe that all! Maybe a small minority had an accelerator in 1993, but no way did a majority, especially in 1993, maybe from 95-96 did it swing over to a majority when the writing was on the wall for the Amiga’s future for stock machines.

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Originally Posted by utri007 View Post
New Amiga game 1995 should have targeted to Amiga 1200 wich has 68030 accelerator and some fast ram.
The market wasn’t big enough for major publishers to support the A1200 let alone a niche market for accelerators, which is why most remaining companies supported the A500 till the dying day bar a tiny few.

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Originally Posted by utri007 View Post
Most of Amiga games that time was targeted to accelerated Amigas
No they really wasn’t, even in 1995 the most supported Amiga was still the A500, but please list the Amiga games that require an accelerator in 1995, would be interesting to know.
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Old 13 April 2020, 22:44   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by utri007 View Post
From 1993 - > majority of Amiga hobbyist had a Amiga 1200 and at least 68030 accelerator.
Maybe the hobbyists, but not the gamers. The gamers still had a vanilla A500, A600 or A1200 in 1993.

The hardware was there (A1200), but it needed higher CPU and memory specs for every 6th months from the day it was released, see my list earlier in this thread. That would've needed an owner that understood that 1992 wasn't 1987 anymore. The Amiga OWNER (Commodore) needed to push the users.

That you could buy a 3rd party turbo card wasn't enough for the game developers to push for higher specs than what the vanilla A1200 offered.
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Old 13 April 2020, 22:46   #43
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Originally Posted by roondar View Post
You are correct, Lion King & Aladdin both run in 64 colour mode.
I had to do a quick test in PS.
(see attachment)

Now, I know this doesn't prove anything... neither I oppose anything you, or anyone else said... I just converted it for fun, and for the matter of discussion.
Maybe my point would be: Sometimes people tends to overestimate 256 colors, and underestimate 32 or 16 colors, and even a 16 colors could be crazy good looking in a hands of a master.
I think the difference is most seen at some clean gradients, and effects with shading the clouds, or some other translucent effects.
For the games like Warcraft 2 (where you have all kinds of colors scattered), I think A1200 (at least in terms of colors), should perform more then equal to the task.
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Old 13 April 2020, 22:50   #44
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d4rk3lf: Surprisingly small differences.
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Old 13 April 2020, 22:53   #45
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in 1996 , just before i sold my A1200 i had a stock A1200 with a 60mb hard disk and an extra external floppy drive, and that was it, no extra ram or accelerator.

And none of my amiga owning friends had an accelerator either, so somehow i doubt the majority had anything better than me to be honest.

Yeah i traded it all in for a 486 dx2 66 PC
 
Old 13 April 2020, 22:57   #46
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Originally Posted by duga View Post
d4rk3lf: Surprisingly small differences.
My point exactly.

And I did that quick conversion, a little bit carefully, and not taking any jpeg (with artifacts), but as clear source as I could find.

Of course, for some other games (with other look), it would be more difference. And there's a whole lot other stuff involved in real remake.
But I guess, with 64 colors, or whatever A1200 works fastest, and some clever math, and clever converting all the sprites, effects and background, we could have very similar look to original.
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Old 13 April 2020, 23:37   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xubidoo View Post
in 1996 , just before i sold my A1200 i had a stock A1200 with a 60mb hard disk and an extra external floppy drive, and that was it, no extra ram or accelerator.

And none of my amiga owning friends had an accelerator either, so somehow i doubt the majority had anything better than me to be honest.

Yeah i traded it all in for a 486 dx2 66 PC
I had a Viper 68030 accelerator 1996. Latter I get Apollo 68040 accelerator.
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Old 14 April 2020, 10:26   #48
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Originally Posted by d4rk3lf View Post
I had to do a quick test in PS.
(see attachment)

Now, I know this doesn't prove anything... neither I oppose anything you, or anyone else said... I just converted it for fun, and for the matter of discussion.
Maybe my point would be: Sometimes people tends to overestimate 256 colors, and underestimate 32 or 16 colors, and even a 16 colors could be crazy good looking in a hands of a master.
I think the difference is most seen at some clean gradients, and effects with shading the clouds, or some other translucent effects.
For the games like Warcraft 2 (where you have all kinds of colors scattered), I think A1200 (at least in terms of colors), should perform more then equal to the task.

And of course there have been efforts to make a WC clone in the past - http://aminet.net/search?query=warcraft
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Old 14 April 2020, 11:18   #49
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From my point of view, the Amiga (and especially the A500) has always been a home computer in a way. Like the C64 before.
I didn't even know you could upgrade it with anything other than those 512kb RAM and a second Floppy drive.

And most people I knew didn't "upgrade" their PCs as well.
They just bought a completely new one.

Maybe reused the old hard disk. But even then usually you copied your old data to the larger new hard drive, and threw the old one away or used it as a smaller second hard drive.

Upgrading your computer thats getting more ancient each and every day with accelerators just to keep up with technology is certainly not the norm.

It's not now, and it wasn't back then.
So don't blame the consumers.

(and the failure of the A1200 being too late and the market having left for the PC has been discussed many times).
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Old 14 April 2020, 11:28   #50
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Slow CPU was only one of the obstacles. Most PC games of that era use higher resolution 640×480. Scaling graphics down would make the game looks much worse or unplayable.
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Old 14 April 2020, 11:46   #51
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Now obviously, I don't have figures or anything like that for A1200 accelerator sales.
But I do think more people had an expanded A1200 than some might think. And I don't just think this because my "anecdotal evidence" is different from Xubidoo's (I didn't know that many people who owned an A1200, but every single one I did know upgraded their A1200 with an accelerator, extra memory and a HDD - myself included).

No, the reason I think this is the frankly impressively large A1200 accelerator business. If no one, or only a tiny percentage of people, upgraded their A1200 this market should not have existed in the form it did. There were so many companies building A1200 accelerators and so many different A1200 accelerators on the market.

This was very different from the A500 days, were there where clearly far fewer options and far fewer models (they did exist, but not to anywhere near the same scale). Couple this with the difference in market size (several million A500's vs only around 200.000 A1200's) and it seems to me that the only logical conclusion is that a much higher percentage of A1200 owners had their machine upgraded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExiE View Post
Slow CPU was only one of the obstacles. Most PC games of that era use higher resolution 640×480. Scaling graphics down would make the game looks much worse or unplayable.
This is only really true for 1996 onwards, most early 1990's titles on PC ran in 320x200 or 320x240.
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Old 14 April 2020, 12:34   #52
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Slow CPU was only one of the obstacles. Most PC games of that era use higher resolution 640×480. Scaling graphics down would make the game looks much worse or unplayable.
Not in '92 when A1200 was released. Not in '93 or '94 when Doom and Doom II was released.

From '97 for sure, but then it was time to retire the A1200 anyway.
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Old 14 April 2020, 12:52   #53
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Originally Posted by Steril707 View Post
And most people I knew didn't "upgrade" their PCs as well.
They just bought a completely new one.

Maybe reused the old hard disk. But even then usually you copied your old data to the larger new hard drive, and threw the old one away or used it as a smaller second hard drive.

Upgrading your computer thats getting more ancient each and every day with accelerators just to keep up with technology is certainly not the norm.

It's not now, and it wasn't back then.
So don't blame the consumers.
I think maybe your friends just had too much money Gradually upgrading PCs is their selling point and the norm which drives the market, at least in the gaming sphere.

Of course it's up to you how & how often you want to do it, if you held up 5-10 years with an upgrade then quite possibly you could just get a "new" one. But nowadays there are is such a myriad of options and combinations, plus the whole gaming thing has stagnated so I can't imagine why somebody would want to do it, unless -again - they have a huge bankroll and either can't be bothered DIYing or don't have the skills. It's true that the hype train sources tell you to gut everything and get everything new, but it's unnecessary with little common sense and research.

I don't have a gaming rig at the moment but a few years ago I had the mighty i7 2600K (an ancient model even then) driving my machine capable of running ENB Skyrim in 1080p with a heap of mods, all in ~60fps. All I had to do to get there was to change the GPU every now and then. I don't suppose the situation has changed much these days, and it was similar when a had a Celeron 333 and a succession of Voodoos.
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Old 14 April 2020, 15:08   #54
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I think maybe your friends just had too much money Gradually upgrading PCs is their selling point and the norm which drives the market, at least in the gaming sphere.
but that was only a very small percentage.

I think "our" (as in most of us here) view is massively biased.
For most businesses, from big to small, a computer was like a car: you buy it once and after a while you buy a new one.

And except for some gamers, hobbyists and geeks most home users treated and tread computers the same. No upgrades.

Even worse: also the A500 gamers did NOT do what later PC gamers would do and did not upgrade their computers.
the A500 was mostly treated like a console (unfortunately also by commodore, but without making money from games...)

For the 1200 users: these are already the ones, the few, that wanted to upgrade there Amiga ... an therefore it seems logical, that this group of users would upgrade their machine further with ram and accelerators...
at least to a higher percentage than the A500 crowd.

And all that is the reason, why we did see the game marked for the am Amiga collapse in the 90s:
also from the software industry is was treated like a outdated console...

Last edited by Gorf; 14 April 2020 at 15:18.
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Old 14 April 2020, 15:47   #55
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But A1200 users (Ax000 users too) were forced to upgrade if they don't wanted to change the system and wanted to be "up-to-date", because there wasn't newer Amigas available.

On PC side buying every 1-2 years a new one to be able to play the newest games sounds really expensive to me. Only an option for the rich ones?
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Old 14 April 2020, 16:05   #56
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Originally Posted by duga View Post
No Amiga PPC in 94.

040 for NHL 96 (released end of '95), 060 for NHL 97 (released end of '96) and PPC for NHL 98 (released end of '97) could in theory have worked.
Seriously? These games all ran fine on the Megadrive's 68000. If the Amiga version needed an 060 (or a PPC) then it would have to be an incredibly poorly coded port.
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Old 14 April 2020, 16:19   #57
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Seriously? These games all ran fine on the Megadrive's 68000. If the Amiga version needed an 060 (or a PPC) then it would have to be an incredibly poorly coded port.
I think he was referring to the fully 3D PS1/PC versions.
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Old 14 April 2020, 18:18   #58
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Seriously? These games all ran fine on the Megadrive's 68000. If the Amiga version needed an 060 (or a PPC) then it would have to be an incredibly poorly coded port.
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Originally Posted by roondar View Post
I think he was referring to the fully 3D PS1/PC versions.
I was thinking of the PC version. Now I realise that MegaDrive & SNES got NHL releases up until NHL 98 (released 97).

Here are the minimum specs for the first MS-DOS release in 1993: https://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/nhl-hockey-/techinfo

i386DX
2 MB RAM
VGA
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Old 14 April 2020, 18:31   #59
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I think he was referring to the fully 3D PS1/PC versions.
In that case, I'm not sure that even a PPC would be up to the task. I really think you'd need some sort of 3D acceleration if you wanted a decent frame rate.
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Old 14 April 2020, 19:16   #60
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but that was only a very small percentage.

I think "our" (as in most of us here) view is massively biased.
For most businesses, from big to small, a computer was like a car: you buy it once and after a while you buy a new one.

And except for some gamers, hobbyists and geeks most home users treated and tread computers the same. No upgrades.
PC market was so huge (it actually still is, despite the decline) that there was space for all kinds of models. So yes, for some businesses, mostly huge corporate ones, it was as you say - which is why we can now buy for silly money cute mini i3/5s they threw away en masse, to serve as powerful emu boxes.

Conversely, despite this biz segment being huge, the gaming enthusiast and home-user-who-upgrades one also was/is. I worked in a computer shop in the late 90s as a service/sales person and for every branded PC which came in a box we sold 10 which were made to order in the shop. And people who bought them then came back for parts later. Because upgrading PCs is so damn easy. It wasn't only gamers and home users, we also serviced many small businesss companies which would rather pay us to upgrade stuff for them than buy a brand new unit.

But anyway, this is slightly off topic, I was only responding to that particular comment re PCs. I can agree that in Amiga world such upgrades were strictly for the small subset of hardcore enhusiasts, which, in context of this thread, did not interest big publishers as viable market for ports.
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