How to make IPF's work in the HXC floppy emulator

kipper2k · 08 July 2010, 02:40

Hi all,

this is kinda freaky, probably been done already but... I was able to convert some ipf images to HFE images and then successfully load them on a real amiga. Titles i have tried so far has been last ninja, Shadow of Beast and Dragons Lair. I so far found one that wouldn't work (Zoom by Discovery) so i am not sure if it is the image or the tool not able to convert the ipf properly.

I used the img2hfe tool to convert the ipf to HFE and then loaded it via the HXC floppy emulator. I will try some more to see just how many will work.

edit... Superfrog works too

Supamax · 08 July 2010, 03:23

Sorry for the probably stupid post but... I thought that the HXC floppy emulator was able to directly load .ipf files. Isn't it so then?

kipper2k · 08 July 2010, 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supamax

Sorry for the probably stupid post but... I thought that the HXC floppy emulator was able to directly load .ipf files. Isn't it so then?

nope, not according to the readmes, it doesnt support ipf images

thgill · 08 July 2010, 03:34

According to http://hxc2001.free.fr/floppy_drive_emulator/

Quote:

*.IPF/Caps 26/03/2008 > New software and CPLD core -> Full support of protected floppies image. Variable bitrate and flakeys bits protection are now supported.

Isn't that the same thing?

kipper2k · 08 July 2010, 03:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by thgill

According to http://hxc2001.free.fr/floppy_drive_emulator/

Isn't that the same thing?

mabbe the pdf i checked was out of date, it says....

Below is the actual list of supported file images type:
*.ST, *.MSA, *.ADF, *.ADZ, *.DMZ, CPC DSK (standard and extended), CopyQM
DSK, Oric DSK, *.IMG, *.SMC, MSX DSK, *.IMD, Zx Spectrum DSK, BetaDisk *.TRD,
BetaDisk *.SCL, Thomson TO8D *.SAP, Thomson TO8D *.FD, PC88 *.D88, x68000
*.HDM (beta), x68000 *.XDF (beta), custom raw floppy geometry…
An AmigaDOS or FAT12 floppy disk image can also be generated from spares files

(Create FS Floppy button).

mr.vince · 08 July 2010, 08:18

We're using HxC USB units here to test IPFs for systems we don't have final emulators for yet. You can load them directly after downloading the capslib from our downloads page. Works like a charm.

The SD card version needs files to be converted first, which renders some pretty tricky protections ununsable. The USB version does not have this limitation.

Jeff_HxC2001 · 08 July 2010, 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by kipper2k

Hi all,

this is kinda freaky, probably been done already but... I was able to convert some ipf images to HFE

images and then successfully load them on a real amiga. Titles i have tried so far has been last ninja,

Shadow of Beast and Dragons Lair. I so far found one that wouldn't work (Zoom by Discovery) so i am not

sure if it is the image or the tool not able to convert the ipf properly.

I used the img2hfe tool to convert the ipf to HFE and then loaded it via the HXC floppy emulator. I will

try some more to see just how many will work.

edit... Superfrog works too

In fact the HxC SD Card Floppy emulator is not able to emulate variable bitrate and flakey bits for the moment as said in the specification file :

http://hxc2001.free.fr/floppy_drive_...y_Emulator.pdf

Quote:

(Note : Variable bitrate not supported. So protected floppy disk image (IPF and STX
file format) file support will be only partial ! If you look for a device supporting IPF /
STX please a have a look to the USB HxC Floppy Emulator device)

So games relying on this type of protection will not work.
For games relying on the track format or on the "high density" protection, overlap protection, this could works but nothing is guaranteed.

If you want something able to emulate protected floppy disk “perfectly”, the old USB HxC Floppy Emulator (a 2005/2006 design

) is for the moment the only alternative. This board is more powerful than the SD version and are able to emulate variable bitrate, flakey bits, etc...

kipper2k · 08 July 2010, 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff_HxC2001

If you want something able to emulate protected floppy disk “perfectly”, the old USB HxC Floppy Emulator (a 2005/2006 design

) is for the moment the only alternative. This board is more powerful than the SD version and are able to emulate variable bitrate, flakey bits, etc...

Hi Jeff,

Is the latest board available as a kit, i'd like to build it myself if you have them available ?

thanks

alexh · 08 July 2010, 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff_HxC2001

This board is more powerful than the SD version and are able to emulate variable bitrate, flakey bits, etc...

Oh come on. Surely it is the host PC dangling off the end which is more powerful

The USB board seems fairly dumb compared to the SD card version, just a slave to the host PC.

The Windows app for the HxC USB board uses the SPS .DLL to produce the data stream as if it were an emulator, am I right?

Not knocking it, very clever idea.

mr.vince · 08 July 2010, 18:58

There is a guy called "Guille" in Spain that built some for us. He should also have unassembled PCBs. PM me for contact if you want.

Retro1234 · 08 July 2010, 19:59

So if you have a USB HXC and external drive with classic cyclone you could copy most IPFs back to disk wich is what people have been wanting to do.

alexh · 08 July 2010, 21:14

Hmm, yeah if it can be copied with a Cyclone that would be possible.

mr.vince · 08 July 2010, 21:48

Yes, could be true for "easy" things, like some less restrictive copylocks, longtrack keytracks or similar. It will still fail for more advanced copylocks, weak bits, mixing of 4us and 2us recording, things that mess with the gap (write splice point outside of gap), or "good" longtracks (which fail miserably due to missing precompensation, especially on tracks > 60). Still lots of "ifs"...

And to be honest... when you already have a HxC attached to your machine, why clone a disk? You already have a perfect clone to play with...

Jeff_HxC2001 · 08 July 2010, 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexh

Oh come on. Surely it is the host PC dangling off the end which is more powerful

The USB board seems fairly dumb compared to the SD card version, just a slave to the host PC.

No wrong.
You didn't understand how the USB and SD HxC Floppy Emulator works:

With the USB version the PC just transfert a precomputed data/command stream to the Emulator, just like the SD version with HFE file. (IPF library is not used at the emulation time, it was used during the loading time)

Why i said that the USB version is more powerful ? Simply because the CPLD is able to execute specials commands present in the data stream to change bitrate/sync side/generate flakey bits, while getting data from the USB, increasing/decreasing track position/ managing floppy signals in the same time.

The 10Mips PIC MCU isn't able to do this because this chip doesn't have a serial output able to change its bitrate on the fly (like most mcu...) and doesn't have the time to parse the data stream to execute commands on the fly.
And this is a MCU not a CPLD... So in the same time doesn't exist here

Hooking a PC to this MCU doesn't change the problem. (And the sdcard throughput is more important than the USB 1.1 ;-) )

On the contrary if you hook the CPLD to the PIC, this new design should be able to emulate protected floppies with the same precision as the USB HxC Floppy Emulator. (but this cost too much...)

I have used this MCU for an economical choice but this chip hasn’t the flexibility of an CPLD/FPGA…

Quote:

The Windows app for the HxC USB board uses the SPS .DLL to produce the data stream as if it were an emulator, am I right?

Not knocking it, very clever idea.

The windows app is the same for USB & SD version:
For each file image type supported there are a "plugin" able to load IPF or ADZ file for example.
Tracks data are generated (ADF/ADZ...) or extracted (IPF/SPS) at the loading time.
This generated/extracted information are a physical description of the floppies : Bitstream/bitrate/flakey bits...
Once you get this, you can send/export this data to the USB Floppy Emulator / to a file that the SD HxC Floppy Emulator can understand, or to another file type (*.AFI / *.MFM / *.IMG...)
Depending of the target, this last process may implied some loss of data : For example the SD Card floppy emulator file format doesn't store the bitrate stream. IMG file store only sector data (like ADF file). On the contrary the AFI file format keep all data.

For more details have a look to this:
http://hxc2001.free.fr/floppy_drive_...lator_soft.zip
http://hxc2001.free.fr/floppy_drive_...r_soft_src.zip

Retro1234 · 08 July 2010, 22:16

@Jeff with the SD card version are ADFs supported directly ? or do these have to be converted surely this is possible?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr.vince

And to be honest... when you already have a HxC attached to your machine, why clone a disk? You already have a perfect clone to play with...

true kinda defeats the point - but I think there will always be an intrest in writing them back to floppy.

IFW · 08 July 2010, 22:23

Well, for that you will have KryoFlux.
And it will be guaranteed to write exactly what is required

kipper2k · 08 July 2010, 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by IFW

Well, for that you will have KryoFlux.
And it will be guaranteed to write exactly what is required

Thats what i am waiting for

Jeff_HxC2001 · 08 July 2010, 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boo Boo

@Jeff with the SD card version are ADFs supported directly ? or do these have to be converted surely this is possible?

No no way ! By design all supported file need to be converted. I didn't plan to make a direct support of all files formats each time i make an hardware update.

The conversion tool is made to be quick and easy to use.
You can try it :
http://hxc2001.free.fr/floppy_drive_...lator_soft.zip

Here is the user manual :
http://hxc2001.free.fr/floppy_drive_...ser_Manual.pdf

Retro1234 · 08 July 2010, 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff_HxC2001

No no way ! By design all supported file need to be converted. I didn't plan to make a direct support of all files formats each time i make an hardware update.

Ok I agree the software is easy to use

Still I think it would be possible with ADF

Keep up the good work!

Jeff_HxC2001 · 08 July 2010, 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boo Boo

Ok I agree the software is easy to use

Still I think it would be possible with ADF

Keep up the good work!

Of course this is possible ! But i don't want ;-)

Note : I found an amigaos version of the converter somewhere on the web here :
http://www.ppa.pl/artykul-HxC.Floppy...-1_3_1253.html
http://c0ff33.net/~rkujawa/hxc/diski...-alpha1.tar.gz

08 July 2010, 02:40	#1
kipper2k Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Thunder Bay, Canada Posts: 4,323	How to make IPF's work in the HXC floppy emulator Hi all, this is kinda freaky, probably been done already but... I was able to convert some ipf images to HFE images and then successfully load them on a real amiga. Titles i have tried so far has been last ninja, Shadow of Beast and Dragons Lair. I so far found one that wouldn't work (Zoom by Discovery) so i am not sure if it is the image or the tool not able to convert the ipf properly. I used the img2hfe tool to convert the ipf to HFE and then loaded it via the HXC floppy emulator. I will try some more to see just how many will work. edit... Superfrog works too Last edited by kipper2k; 08 July 2010 at 02:50.

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08 July 2010, 03:23	#2
Supamax Da Digger :) Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Monza, Italy Posts: 2,822	Sorry for the probably stupid post but... I thought that the HXC floppy emulator was able to directly load .ipf files. Isn't it so then?

08 July 2010, 08:18	#6
mr.vince Cheesy crust Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Hawk's Creek Age: 48 Posts: 1,383	We're using HxC USB units here to test IPFs for systems we don't have final emulators for yet. You can load them directly after downloading the capslib from our downloads page. Works like a charm. The SD card version needs files to be converted first, which renders some pretty tricky protections ununsable. The USB version does not have this limitation.

08 July 2010, 18:58	#10
mr.vince Cheesy crust Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Hawk's Creek Age: 48 Posts: 1,383	There is a guy called "Guille" in Spain that built some for us. He should also have unassembled PCBs. PM me for contact if you want.

08 July 2010, 19:59	#11
Retro1234 Phone Homer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: 5150 Posts: 5,773	So if you have a USB HXC and external drive with classic cyclone you could copy most IPFs back to disk wich is what people have been wanting to do.

08 July 2010, 21:14	#12
alexh Thalion Webshrine Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Oxford Posts: 14,337	Hmm, yeah if it can be copied with a Cyclone that would be possible.

08 July 2010, 21:48	#13
mr.vince Cheesy crust Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Hawk's Creek Age: 48 Posts: 1,383	Yes, could be true for "easy" things, like some less restrictive copylocks, longtrack keytracks or similar. It will still fail for more advanced copylocks, weak bits, mixing of 4us and 2us recording, things that mess with the gap (write splice point outside of gap), or "good" longtracks (which fail miserably due to missing precompensation, especially on tracks > 60). Still lots of "ifs"... And to be honest... when you already have a HxC attached to your machine, why clone a disk? You already have a perfect clone to play with...

08 July 2010, 22:23	#16
IFW Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: ... Age: 52 Posts: 1,838	Well, for that you will have KryoFlux. And it will be guaranteed to write exactly what is required

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