Hardware emulator project

Parsec · 12 February 2009, 14:18

Just seen this on Slashdot:

http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl...30230&from=rss

I'm thinking they'll go down the FPGA route like Minimig.

A lot of the dumbasses on that slashdot posting seem to think it's just going to be a collection of software emulators.

This project could/should include the Amiga.

Amiga1992 · 12 February 2009, 15:13

"Games particularly tend not to be archived because they are seen as disposable, pulp cultural artefacts, but they represent a really important part of our recent cultural history."

What? A load of tosh, since a myriad of projects are preserving games on many platforms!!

A hardware MAME tihngie will surely be a load of work,having in mind all the different PCB layouts and processors running on each different machine... This project sounds vapourwareish...

pubzombie · 12 February 2009, 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akira

"Games particularly tend not to be archived because they are seen as disposable, pulp cultural artefacts, but they represent a really important part of our recent cultural history."

What? A load of tosh, since a myriad of projects are preserving games on many platforms!!.

Yep there are lots of well established methods and archives that preserve games - TOSEC is great - but because its not done by established historians who work out of universities they will not see it as official and will work at undoing anything anybody has already done.
I work as an historian at a university but I freelance, I am my own boss, and I have a lot of problems with established history, especially where games are concerned as they are my passion and hobby.
I get scoffed at at work by Historian colleagues - i do not consider them friends - because I have chosen to steer my career towards games and games culture. mark my words games are a very effective tool for viewing a culture and its beliefs, and its values, but because there are no established archives and studies it is viewed as a geek and minority interest. dont get me started on the ivory tower brigade - I am pretty sick of seeing high paid 'intellectuals' at conferences talk about games they have never played and certainly dont understand as a cultural and social artifact. It gives me great pleasure shooting them down in flames.
*RANT RANT*
*DRINKS BEER*
sorry i will get my coat

Fred the Fop · 13 February 2009, 13:55

How sweet! There is a think tank or research consortium of niversitis in Europe that want to keep files on dead media example: 5.5 inch floppies) accessible via Keep, which is a universal emulator.
But, uh, why bother, if we have DOSBox, WinUAE, Basilisk II, STeem, Vice, etc?
These guys are really behind the times!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7886754.stm

Graham Humphrey · 13 February 2009, 14:23

Threads merged

killergorilla · 13 February 2009, 14:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred the Fop

How sweet! There is a think tank or research consortium of niversitis in Europe that want to keep files on dead media example: 5.5 inch floppies) accessible via Keep, which is a universal emulator.
But, uh, why bother, if we have DOSBox, WinUAE, Basilisk II, STeem, Vice, etc?
These guys are really behind the times!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7886754.stm

Probably because they want to make some cash out of it all!

Sub-human scum.

alexh · 13 February 2009, 16:02

You just know they are going to get sued. If I was a copyright holder I would be prepping my lawyer right now.

There was something in recent law that preservation of older format data could supersede copyright but I suspect that a test case is brewing.

Lawyers names are made on cases like this.

alexh · 13 February 2009, 16:10

I'd also be changing the licences on my open-sauce emulators in such a way to prevent Portsmouth from using them to make money.

Amiga1992 · 13 February 2009, 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by pubzombie

I get scoffed at at work by Historian colleagues - i do not consider them friends - because I have chosen to steer my career towards games and games culture. mark my words games are a very effective tool for viewing a culture and its beliefs, and its values, but because there are no established archives and studies it is viewed as a geek and minority interest.

That's very interesting!
I see your point absolutely...
A Videogame Archive would be awesome...

IFW · 13 February 2009, 17:56

A few millions worth of money is being involved, hence the interest in reselling existing stuff as the result of the research

pubzombie · 14 February 2009, 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by IFW

A few millions worth of money is being involved, hence the interest in reselling existing stuff as the result of the research

the higher education scene is undergoing a lot of changes at the moment, and in my opinion undergraduates are getting a bum deal as universities seek to inflate their research profiles in order to get tax payer dollars. As games are a growing sector of the economy in harsh times they will be focused on in greater force by research establishments. It will be very easy for professional historian to take work and research done by people with a passion for retro machines and software and make it their own. At the moment university staff seem spellbound by the Wii and are pushing to be involved in software production with Wii developers in a big way, it is a mistake i think, as i see the casual gamer 'cash in' as a temporary blip. I have seen Professorial staff argue at conferences that the Wii will cause the demise of consoles like the 360 within 5 years - utter tripe in my opinion, from a guy who doesnt play games.

It will be interesting to see what comes of studies like the one being done at Nottingham Trent and game city.

paranoid · 14 February 2009, 20:44

What a bunch of absolute crap. Do they actually think they can do better and lump it all together in one program? Delusional. And they think games aren't archived? What kind of "historians" are they?

And it's stupid on two levels.. First, from using, and admiring, things like WinUAE and MAME it's obvious they're complicated, dedicated pieces of work. Then pile on the numerous other emulators.. And MESS that does.. well just what they're planning on doing. Let's reinvent the wheel because we have engineering degrees! Plus, things like TOSEC, Gamebase 64 and Amiga and Lemonade, even MAME itself, along with numerous other projects, are archiving the games that, I guess, aren't being archived.

Preaching to the choir maybe, but as I read that, the stupid really started to burn.

paranoid · 14 February 2009, 20:45

Oh, and it's just a regular emulator. From the article: "Computer historians and researchers at Portsmouth University in the UK are developing a software emulator that will recognise and play all types of videogames and computer files from the 1970s through to the present day."

hit · 14 February 2009, 21:31

maybe sponsored by the gaming industry, thinking of a new way, remarketing their old assets? well, wild guess (for now).
they've contacted some MESS/MAME devs before the news was sent out.

read more here: http://www.bannister.org/forums/ubbt...8019#Post48019

DrewPee70 · 14 February 2009, 22:53

Well, erm, Im trying it the other way - using old systems to play old games on . . . that is why I wanted to start our Retro Computer Museum, to preserve old systems! I fully agree that emulation is just as important but - you can't beat playing on the original kit. Our collection has now passed the 100 systems mark so I guess when we do eventually open our museum to the public it will certainly be entertaining.

Parsec · 15 February 2009, 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by paranoid

Oh, and it's just a regular emulator. From the article: "Computer historians and researchers at Portsmouth University in the UK are developing a software emulator that will recognise and play all types of videogames and computer files from the 1970s through to the present day."

Didn't notice that. Not exactly cutting edge is it, expected better from a university research project

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrewPee70

Well, erm, Im trying it the other way - using old systems to play old games on . . . that is why I wanted to start our Retro Computer Museum, to preserve old systems! I fully agree that emulation is just as important but - you can't beat playing on the original kit. Our collection has now passed the 100 systems mark so I guess when we do eventually open our museum to the public it will certainly be entertaining.

What's happening with the launch? There was a very misleading article on BBC News a few months back that led me to believe it was open in Bradford, I nearly drove over there but luckily phoned first.

pubzombie · 15 February 2009, 02:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by hit

maybe sponsored by the gaming industry, thinking of a new way, remarketing their old assets? well, wild guess (for now).
they've contacted some MESS/MAME devs before the news was sent out.

read more here: http://www.bannister.org/forums/ubbt...8019#Post48019

YES. More than likely. I have seen things going this way for a while now.

I presented a paper last spring on the social and cultural significance of multi-player games. Short story: I argued that new gen games are not as immersive in many respects, in comparison with Amiga generation of games, because social aspects of game play such as multi player competition and cooperation are now second place to grafix and special effects budgets - and as a result the playability and longevity of games will suffer. EG ; I propposed that Tabula Rassa was dead in the water despite its mass market potential of the internet, and this did not go down at all well with some of the marketing peeps that were there. The post paper debate turned on to emulation of older systems and turned very sour very quickly - I remarked that I used a GP2x to run emulators for fun and research. Games esigners and programmers there loved the idea of their games still being played. Marketing and legal representatives from games companies were literaly ready to ripp me to shreds, you could see their brains working overtime to propose an argument that justified a way of clawing back revenue from old games. In pressing economic times I can see this happening. I know very little regards the legal aspects of emulating games so cant comment much, other than I dont emulate amiga games that I havent owned or still own as I pretty much had them all in the day. One marketing type there actually said - 'Mr Sega or Mr Nintendo cant physicaly come round your house and check you own the originals, so we have the law for that, and we are looking into ways of securing our rights...'
I dont want to appear overly reactionay, a lot of good can come from established research, but I would like to know more about where funds are coming from for this, and what will be published and what wont. I will do some poking around over the next couple of months and post here

DrewPee70 · 15 February 2009, 11:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parsec

Didn't notice that. Not exactly cutting edge is it, expected better from a university research project

What's happening with the launch? There was a very misleading article on BBC News a few months back that led me to believe it was open in Bradford, I nearly drove over there but luckily phoned first.

We don't have premises yet, but we are opening at a local hall for our one day gaming events. Our next event is on the 31st May - I have started a thread to let people know about this here http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=42266 - you can find our more details on our home page and forums too here www.retrocomputermuseum.co.uk

Our previous event in November of last year went down very well - over 70 people in attendance.

Hope that clears that up a little.

Andy

alexh · 15 February 2009, 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by pubzombie

I argued that new gen games are not as immersive in many respects

Dunno about that. Half Life 2, Elder Scrolls (Morrowind/Oblivion), World of War Craft, Eve online etc. etc. far more immersive than anything in the past. These games can eat your life if you let them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pubzombie

social aspects of game play such as multi player competition and cooperation are now second place to grafix and special effects budgets - and as a result the playability and longevity of games will suffer.

GFX is important if you are going to make a generation of gamers pay once again for something with almost identical gameplay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pubzombie

I proposed that Tabula Rassa was dead in the water despite its mass market potential of the internet, and this did not go down at all well with some of the marketing peeps that were there.

Online games are the only way for video games manufacturers to eliminate piracy and make decent profits. I see the majority of big name games going to subscription based online only content within the next few years. Whether the gamers want it or not.

Back to K.E.E.P.

I still think this is all a con to get funding for a University. I bet you that nothing comes of this project at all as they realise the enormity of the task they have taken on and they end up just creating a web page with links to all the existing Emulator websites

Just creating open source hardware for reading all the media they are interested in will take years.

DrewPee70 · 15 February 2009, 13:22

Can I have funding for RCM instead? At least that would benefit a wider audience?
My thoughts are schools, universities etc . . . I have already been approached by a couple of secondary schools in my area about doing a display of some sort as retro computers and older systems are now part of their curriculum.

Sorry - back on topic now . . .

12 February 2009, 14:18	#1
Parsec Registered User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Lancashire Age: 49 Posts: 434	Hardware emulator project Just seen this on Slashdot: http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl...30230&from=rss I'm thinking they'll go down the FPGA route like Minimig. A lot of the dumbasses on that slashdot posting seem to think it's just going to be a collection of software emulators. This project could/should include the Amiga.

13 February 2009, 13:55	#4
Fred the Fop flaming faggot Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Versailles Age: 55 Posts: 2,808	European emulator initiative How sweet! There is a think tank or research consortium of niversitis in Europe that want to keep files on dead media example: 5.5 inch floppies) accessible via Keep, which is a universal emulator. But, uh, why bother, if we have DOSBox, WinUAE, Basilisk II, STeem, Vice, etc? These guys are really behind the times! http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7886754.stm

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12 February 2009, 15:13	#2
Amiga1992 Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ? Posts: 19,646	"Games particularly tend not to be archived because they are seen as disposable, pulp cultural artefacts, but they represent a really important part of our recent cultural history." What? A load of tosh, since a myriad of projects are preserving games on many platforms!! A hardware MAME tihngie will surely be a load of work,having in mind all the different PCB layouts and processors running on each different machine... This project sounds vapourwareish...

13 February 2009, 14:23	#5
Graham Humphrey Moderator Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK Age: 37 Posts: 11,167	Threads merged

13 February 2009, 16:02	#7
alexh Thalion Webshrine Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Oxford Posts: 14,356	You just know they are going to get sued. If I was a copyright holder I would be prepping my lawyer right now. There was something in recent law that preservation of older format data could supersede copyright but I suspect that a test case is brewing. Lawyers names are made on cases like this.

13 February 2009, 16:10	#8
alexh Thalion Webshrine Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Oxford Posts: 14,356	I'd also be changing the licences on my open-sauce emulators in such a way to prevent Portsmouth from using them to make money.

13 February 2009, 17:56	#10
IFW Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: ... Age: 52 Posts: 1,838	A few millions worth of money is being involved, hence the interest in reselling existing stuff as the result of the research

14 February 2009, 20:44	#12
paranoid Phone Zen Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Banned Age: 52 Posts: 234	What a bunch of absolute crap. Do they actually think they can do better and lump it all together in one program? Delusional. And they think games aren't archived? What kind of "historians" are they? And it's stupid on two levels.. First, from using, and admiring, things like WinUAE and MAME it's obvious they're complicated, dedicated pieces of work. Then pile on the numerous other emulators.. And MESS that does.. well just what they're planning on doing. Let's reinvent the wheel because we have engineering degrees! Plus, things like TOSEC, Gamebase 64 and Amiga and Lemonade, even MAME itself, along with numerous other projects, are archiving the games that, I guess, aren't being archived. Preaching to the choir maybe, but as I read that, the stupid really started to burn.

14 February 2009, 20:45	#13
paranoid Phone Zen Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Banned Age: 52 Posts: 234	Oh, and it's just a regular emulator. From the article: "Computer historians and researchers at Portsmouth University in the UK are developing a software emulator that will recognise and play all types of videogames and computer files from the 1970s through to the present day."

14 February 2009, 21:31	#14
hit Registered User Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: planet earth Posts: 1,115	maybe sponsored by the gaming industry, thinking of a new way, remarketing their old assets? well, wild guess (for now). they've contacted some MESS/MAME devs before the news was sent out. read more here: http://www.bannister.org/forums/ubbt...8019#Post48019

14 February 2009, 22:53	#15
DrewPee70 RetroComputerMuseum Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Leicestershire / England Age: 53 Posts: 45	Well, erm, Im trying it the other way - using old systems to play old games on . . . that is why I wanted to start our Retro Computer Museum, to preserve old systems! I fully agree that emulation is just as important but - you can't beat playing on the original kit. Our collection has now passed the 100 systems mark so I guess when we do eventually open our museum to the public it will certainly be entertaining.

15 February 2009, 13:22	#20
DrewPee70 RetroComputerMuseum Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Leicestershire / England Age: 53 Posts: 45	Can I have funding for RCM instead? At least that would benefit a wider audience? My thoughts are schools, universities etc . . . I have already been approached by a couple of secondary schools in my area about doing a display of some sort as retro computers and older systems are now part of their curriculum. Sorry - back on topic now . . .

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