Next gen Amiga

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by kolla

I suggest you buy a Terasic DE-10 Nano and start hacking on it, replacing the CPU part of the Minimig core with an UAE CPU core on the ARM.

I will probably do it the other way around: starting with pure software emulation and replacing parts in that emulator with FPGA equivalents.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by MigaTech

why should it not be one of the best modern either?

Because it can't. The OS is a complete dead end, and hardware wise you'd have to do better than current peecee hardware. Isn't gonna happen.

[Valken]

Originally Posted by Gorf

It is always hard to compare JIT-speed to "real" speed. A JIT needs to "warm up", so if you run loop in code the first few iteration will be as slow as just interpreted emulation, than the emulator detects the loop and compiles it to native machine code ... if something runs very often it will try to optimize that code further....

So that is way things on WinUEA with JIT don't feel always that responsive as they should on a real 68K@500MHz...

The first step of my plan would be to "help" the software-JIT, by doing things like instruction decoding in the FPGA in a parallel manner.

That should increase speed in interpreted mode (no JIT) and should also speed up the first run in the JIT.

The idea is, that the Host CPU should concentrate on executing the translated code, while the FPGA takes care of the translation (and maybe transcompilation)

Wouldn't these problems / issue / tuning / performance can become a reality just by multi-threading WinUAE or UAE since ALL current CPUs on desktops, mobiles or tables are multicore! Why add another piece of external hardware when you can use what is already paid for in one way or another?

This is probably a better way to get something going since MOST folks here own a x86/64 or ARM device by now.

Dualcore CPU (default or highly overclocked) are playing near 30+ FPS emulated PS3 games already! That is really brute strength CPU decoding mainly.

I bet WinUAE or UAE or FPGA type cores can be optimized on current x86/64 or ARM processors to get more power but know that it is not easy to multi-thread out applications.

But the real deal is - what are you going to do with that? If AmigaOS 3x/4x/MorphOS or whatever cannot use it, it will die again.

Unless someone makes a realizable extended NG Amiga "system" (HW or SW) available, no one will support it.

If some is actually trying to code or hack these features, why not do a "best of" feature set and add like NeoGEO or X68000 or CPSC arcade type system to extend the Amiga feature set? There is really no limits as we can hack all day but until something becomes solid and usable, say an extend mode like RTG in everything currently Amiga (UAE, FPGA, etc...) it won't get used.

I think someone else mentioned it that MorphOS was actively adding new drivers for older and current HW or that Apollo will look at adding HW type features in SAGA, which is totally cool but I fear won't be usable unless it becomes widely adapted and available.

---

I just jumped back to the first post and my answer would be the fastest PC with 2 sessions of WinUAE - one for 68K and one for PPC / OS4 / MorphOS on the cheap. I tried 2 sessions of WinUAE and Hatari and Speccy emulators with demos running at 100% not slowing down my PC Quad Core. Music was crazy though.

The second answer would be a PowerMAC DualCore 1.8 GHZ with MorphOS but then I don't know how fast MorphOS UAE is vs WinUAE on a fast PC. Not even sure if MorphOS recognizes beyond 2 cores.

Third would be an x86/64 bit based MorphOS running in a virtual session on top of Windows. That would probably be a good use of all the cores on a PC while having the option to run WinUAE or UAE in MorphOS as near native speeds. Not sure if MorphOS x86 actually exists.

[Gorf]

Wouldn't these problems / issue / tuning / performance can become a reality just by multi-threading WinUAE or UAE since ALL current CPUs on desktops, mobiles or tables are multicore!

only to a certain, not so high, degree:
you can see the problem on your browsers JS engine or any Java VM - more cores won't give you more speed, or at least far from what your system is capable of in theory.

If you try to split up the workload of a JIT between different cores, you will realize soon, that you need a fast way of communication between your parts ... if your cores do not share the same cache, this can mean writing down to RAM ... which is very very slow - so keeping things in just one task and one cpu and one cache can be faster...

Lets take the instruction decoding. And lets say it takes three basic steps to decode one instruction.
In an FPGA you can create a pipeline with three stages - if the pipeline is filled 3 instructions will be decoded in parallel and every round one complete instruction is decoded ...

You would need 3 cores of your multicore cpu to do just this ...and than you have to send instruction A from core 2 to core 3 and load instruction B from core 1 to core 2 ... possible saving down each step to RAM.
And you need to fit in some extra steps, to follow what virtual register value is going to end in what host-cpu register ... and feed this information back to a different core again ...

These are all things that work in parallel in an FPGA, as you can route the informations as you please.

If AmigaOS would be able to run more than one task at once, we would of course take advantage of multicore systems.
(got some ideas there as well...)

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

Because it can't. The OS is a complete dead end,

Why do you think that?

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by Gorf

Why do you think that?

Memory protection is impossible to add, and without that, you can't have a modern OS. And then there's multiple CPU cores... have fun with that Also, it's a 32bit OS. It would probably need an extensive overhaul to get it to support 64bit. A large undertaking that will never, ever happen.

[kolla]

Originally Posted by Gorf

Why do you think that?

AmigaOS doesn't just lack, it is based around and highly relies on concepts that is strictly illegal in all modern operating systems - AmigaOS is essentially an operating system that is one process, exec, that holds the entire memory space, and all programs are tasks within that process, all sharing the whole memory space. Spectre and Meltdown? No worries with Amiga, the OS itself offers those as features.

[kolla]

The best you could have hoped for, is what Apple did, re-implement the classic OS user experience on a modern operating system (in Apple's case NeXTStep, a BSD UNIX on Mach microkernel), if convenient and possible port relevant technologies to the new platform (for example, re-implement boopsi, datatypes etc in a modern fashion), and also rely on emulation in a transition period.

Actually, back in 1996, this was a, if not the, plan for OS4, but it never materialised.

[jediknight]

a nice new 1200 with radeon built in and standard output ,and 4gb memory and a 16it sound card make it so number one.

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

Memory protection is impossible to add, and without that, you can't have a modern OS. And then there's multiple CPU cores... have fun with that Also, it's a 32bit OS. It would probably need an extensive overhaul to get it to support 64bit. A large undertaking that will never, ever happen.

AROSv1 is already 64-Bit. So that is not really a problem anymore.

I was expecting the memory protection issue.
Multiple cores can be supported without memory protection - again, there is already some work done on Aros - but yes: it makes stability even worse.
But there are other ways than SMP:
running multiple instances of the OS - each core gets its own EXEC and memory.
Communication via message passing handled by a lightweight hypervisor.

Have look at modern unikernel OSes that run in a single adressspace to gain speed:

OSv
MirageOS
Rumprun
IncludeOS

With AMD going towards NUMA this will probably be even the best way to go for any OS!

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by kolla

AmigaOS is essentially an operating system that is one process, exec, that holds the entire memory space, and all programs are tasks within that process, all sharing the whole memory space.

just answered it one post above.

Our kernel is small enough to bundle it with an application. Who cares if a modern browser is 100k bigger? Or even a few MByte bigger including the necessary libs?
Run that in an new instance of your OS and you have the perfect sandbox everyone wants for a browser.

QubesOS (separating full OS instances)
Genode (finer graned framework)

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by Gorf

just answered it one post above.

Our kernel is small enough to bundle it with an application. Who cares if a modern browser is 100k bigger? Or even a few MByte bigger including the necessary libs?
Run that in an new instance of your OS and you have the perfect sandbox everyone wants for a browser.

QubesOS (separating full OS instances)
Genode (finer graned framework)

I'd rather have something new that drops ALL compatibility and isn't based on an OS that came out in 1985 (eg designed PROPERLY). Even 68k can do better and be faster than AOS3. Then add some properly written (from scratch) software, and it be a blast. Yeah, never gonna happen, I know

AOS is what I don't like about Amiga.

[MigaTech]

Why is this such an issue? Windows 95/98 were DOS based Operating Systems. It wasn't until Windows XP did they change all that.

Even then they used extensions of Neptune and Odyssey which in turn made it all simplified.

So maybe it is possible to do the same on Amiga, Windows 98 SE and ME were once again improved versions of the older OS. They still continued to improve despite limitations.

It wasn't until Windows Vista did it all start to become the modern Windows era.

Apple were on a totally different concept to all of this, just as Amiga was and yet OS.9 was the best they produced, even with the omission of protected memory.

Amiga has OS3.9 as the final true OS, so this is where you start, why not implement area's of both early and later operating systems to create one modern environment, yet all the time keep it simplified.

It seems like this is a task beyond tasks, then again that is what makes this so interesting. It has been done before where people said it couldn't, kind of an example would be MYST the video game. This was programmed on computers that most believed, were not able for the given task.

They found ways to get around all the problems, even if it took them 2 years to do so.

I think you all know what I am getting at here, list out the major flaws and attack them one by one. Even if you have to exhaust every aspect of Amiga, CPU, chipset, ROM, and Memory.

This isn't a total impossibility the limit isn't Amiga, it is the programmer/s, we need to find a way, just like they did with MYST!

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

Memory protection is impossible to add, and without that, you can't have a modern OS.

Memory protection isn't impossible to add. Just use the sandbox technique. You can already, as of today, run several Amiga programs in this way - just run several instances of uae.

Also keep in mind that memory protection shouldn't be more than a debugging tool. Making the system tolerant to errors, makes these errors more frequent. I see it as an option that you activate only for programs you don't trust.

Originally Posted by Thorham

And then there's multiple CPU cores... have fun with that

These have been invented to make peecees multitask properly. It's not needed on Amiga.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Also, it's a 32bit OS. It would probably need an extensive overhaul to get it to support 64bit. A large undertaking that will never, ever happen.

And what's wrong in being 32bit ? What do you need 64bit for ?

Originally Posted by Thorham

AOS is what I don't like about Amiga.

Me too. But i'll tell you a secret : all other OSes are worse.

[Megol]

Originally Posted by Gorf

AROS1 is already 64-Bit. So that is not really a problem anymore.

That's not backwards compatible. If one are to drop that why not make a modern OS instead?

I was expecting the memory protection issue.
Multiple cores can be supported without memory protection - again, there is already some work done on Aros - but yes: it makes stability even worse.

Of course it can be supported without any memory protection, the problem with dragging Amiga OS into multi-processing are elsewhere.

But there are other ways than SMP:
running multiple instances of the OS - each core gets its own EXEC and memory.
Communication via message passing handled by a lightweight hypervisor.

IOW a VM design. Higher overheads due to separate system images, harder to manage due to separate system images, not working as one system due to separate system images.

That is good for creating several virtual machines but not as a user oriented OS design.

Have look at modern unikernel OSes that run in a single adressspace to gain speed:
<snip>

Single address space doesn't change much, it's just another way to organize things.

Single address space without protection is for specialized systems. And the first link I clicked - a specialized "OS" running over hardware VM support. The second link - a specialized "OS" running over hardware VM support running over an existing hypervisor software. I see the pattern...

To make it more relevant why not mention Exokernels that do the same kind of thing but with even less overhead and no extra hardware support needed?

With AMD going towards NUMA this will probably be even the best way to go for any OS!

Everyone have been NUMA for a long time now? And that doesn't change anything.

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by Megol

That's not backwards compatible. If one are to drop that why not make a modern OS instead?

Of course it is still source code compatible.
ABIv1 is actually the one that is also used for the kickstart replacement on 68k.

I also mentioned some modern OS above - you seem not to like them very much...

IOW a VM design. Higher overheads due to separate system images
, harder to manage due to separate system images, not working as one system due to separate system images.

No.
It is the same as any whdload-collection on your hd.
For apps needing more system files, you can use an fs-overlay.
It can work seamless like Janus-UAE or QubesOS, having windows of different instances on the same desktop.
Containers are clean and even much simpler to manage than old-style installs.

That is good for creating several virtual machines but not as a user oriented OS design.

That is in no way mutual exclusive. VMs/sandboxes/container can be clean, lean, fast and very easy and intuitive to use.

The are save and do not mess up your installation - they can be installed via drag and drop of one icon and removed without any trace with one click.

Single address space doesn't change much, it's just another way to organize things.

the faster way.

Single address space without protection is for specialized systems.

combine a range of these specializes systems and you got a multi-purpose daily-use OS.

And the first link I clicked - a specialized "OS" running over hardware VM support. The second link - a specialized "OS" running over hardware VM support running over an existing hypervisor software. I see the pattern...

hmm - no, I fear you do not see it :-/

To make it more relevant why not mention Exokernels that do the same kind of thing but with even less overhead and no extra hardware support needed?

What overhead?
That some of these examples take advantage of build-in VM support makes absolutely sense.
I said nothing agains an exokernel-approach - old AmigaOS can be seen as an exokernel-OS.

Everyone have been NUMA for a long time now? And that doesn't change anything.

the more a multicore system behaves like a cluster, the more one small kernel per core makes sense.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by kolla

AmigaOS doesn't just lack, it is based around and highly relies on concepts that is strictly illegal in all modern operating systems - AmigaOS is essentially an operating system that is one process, exec, that holds the entire memory space, and all programs are tasks within that process, all sharing the whole memory space. Spectre and Meltdown? No worries with Amiga, the OS itself offers those as features.

Spectre and Meltdown are just the latest proof that despite memory protection and other security concepts 'modern' operating systems are still vulnerable. I have gone back to using my Amiga for Internet access because all my PCs have been compromized. I have no worries with Amiga because with no Intel code etc. it is effectively much more secure.

We were having this same conversation 20 years ago. At that time the Amiga had no answer to the (apparent) clear advantages of the PC's memory protection and security concepts that relied on it. But that security was constantly being compromized to add features and improve performance, and the OS kept getting more and more complex to the point where no mere mortal could hope to truly understand it. Now all we can do is apply the latest patches and hope.

So let's continue the lie that Amiga is worthless because its operating system is 'strictly illegal' and therefore can't compete with PCs. We want attackers to keep ignoring us while they concentrate on where the money is - crappy PCs that have to be constantly 'updated' to plug security holes.

[Dunny]

That's called "Security through obscurity" and is probably one of the worst ways to protect yourself you can use, short of no security at all.

[MigaTech]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

So let's continue the lie that Amiga is worthless because its operating system is 'strictly illegal' and therefore can't compete with PCs. We want attackers to keep ignoring us while they concentrate on where the money is - crappy PCs that have to be constantly 'updated' to plug security holes.

F***ing awesomely put!! I couldn't agree with you more!! My customised PPC Amiga tower surfs the net like a ghost surfer, no-one even knows it is there!! Amiga is epic for modern stealth tactics, I bet even Google couldn't trace an Amiga on-line.

No privacy nowadays PC's, wireless, mobile phones, face recognition, Cameras on every device! Soon everyone shall realise, that the only computer to own, was also known as Friend!

[klx300r]

Originally Posted by Dunny

That's called "Security through obscurity" and is probably one of the worst ways to protect yourself you can use, short of no security at all.

well you can't win in the so called online security war since the minute a 'security' patch is released you know the bad guys already have a work around for it so it's 'false' security patches and we all read about breaches in high level computers everyday...

I know I personally feel alot safer browsing on both my NG and 68k miggies but both work and home PC's get constant spam/ virus warnings/ pop ups that drive me nuts..I used to do online banking but stopped years ago after a friend got ripped off a few thousand bucks from some online hacker...the bank reimbursed him after an investigation but they basically told him they get 1000's of such crap happening every year and expect them to happen so the safest online banking is NO online banking unless you want to play Vegas odds