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Old 11 October 2020, 15:50   #161
Chucky
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a 060 FPGA that runs like a 50MHz 060 would be all just fine for me.
(my 060 machines runs mainly at 50 anyway)
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Old 11 October 2020, 16:06   #162
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Originally Posted by grond View Post
Nonetheless a lot of Amiga software does really nicely with more processor speed.
Give me some examples of old software where this really extends the usability of the Amiga as a hobby computer over a 68030.
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Old 11 October 2020, 16:46   #163
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Give me some examples of old software where this really extends the usability of the Amiga as a hobby computer over a 68030.

All 3D rendering software, web browsers, 3D games, loading big graphics or texts into editors, compiling code, watching demos, loading pdf files. I guess scummvm doesn't count?
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Old 11 October 2020, 16:59   #164
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I fear some of those answer themselves:

- Rendering software, If you really do Lightwave 3D why not just under WinUAE JIT? Results are not going to be worse then Vampire.

- Web Browsers, now you have more CPU grunt to run more Javascript, except your JS engine still sucks so hard it cant render the most basic of React frontends.

- 3D Games, almost all of which are PC ports.

- Loading big graphics or text into editors, okay yes fair enough.

- Compiling code, except that dev tools on Amiga are horrible and cross development is super convenient. Edit/Build/Test cycle is just faster non-native.

- Watching demos? All originally built around at most a 060/66MHz speed performance wise.

- Loading PDF's, i suppose fair.

- ScummVM, a PC port again, not a terribly well maintained one either.
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Old 11 October 2020, 17:19   #165
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It is difficult to believe this is an Amiga forum. All people seems to prefer to use a pc, a raspberry pi or even a microwave instead a real Amiga.
I have an a1260 and a v600 and mates...they both are fantastic!
We have luck. In plain 2020 can choose to buy new hardware to our machines. Dont even know what the problem is.
These Amigans....hehehehe
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Old 11 October 2020, 17:49   #166
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The Apollo core is an interesting development. Hats off to the developers for producing a product Amiga owners want to buy. The future is interesting though. It’s close source nature means development is limited to one or two people in their spare time. The number of people working on TG68 may soon exceed Apollo in daily work rate. A proper 8 way set associative cache, good SDRAM controller design, pipelining branch prediction and it could be reaching new performance levels in weeks
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Old 11 October 2020, 17:57   #167
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It seems to me, reaching 030 on lower Amiga's, is a little bit pointless, (if we have only games in mind).
It's too much speed for regular A500 games (so you don't really need it), and yet, for those who likes to enjoy Doom, Quake, Duke Nukem, is way too little speed.
Aca 500 plus seems like a perfect solution for Amiga 500 to me.
Or Vampire, if the user likes to play 3D games.

Maybe apps benefit much more. Probably some 3D rendering apps, and stuff like that.
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Old 11 October 2020, 18:05   #168
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All people seems to prefer to use a pc, a raspberry pi or even a microwave instead a real Amiga
Oh, not at all. It's just good to know where lies boundary of what's a real improvement and what is wasted effort.

You're free to tell compile time is improved but on the other hand if you really want to develop big project it's way easier to use cross-compiler - it's way faster than whatever you can get on 080.
Web browsing - well yes and no... it is more usable but that's still a field which is lagging behind standards and will continue to do so (so every year it will be less pleasing experience and there's nothing Gunnar can do about it).

3D games - well that is a no. Games with no 3D acceleration (Warp3D) runs faster, yes, but most of them are either perfectly playable with 060 or are ports from PC - that's what I find funny: buying expensive amiga hw to play pc games.
I believe most of ppl here beside amiga use PC or Mac or smartphone or smart tv on regular basis. It should be pretty obvious there's a huge gap between what modern hw can do and what classic amiga can do. It's apparent even to X5000 owners - hw which costs a lot and is decade behind a PC (and that's generous assumption for AmigaOne). So trying to reach mid to late 90s PC level is something I find funny - it's not a level anyone can find usable nowadays as a PC standard goes but somehow that's 7th heaven on Amiga.
Don't get me wrong. I do like improvements for classic amiga but there's plenty of things to improve while Vampire goes into overkill in one area.
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Old 11 October 2020, 18:43   #169
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Did you expect people to write new and Amiga-exclusive mid-90s games?
If only.
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Old 11 October 2020, 19:06   #170
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It is difficult to believe this is an Amiga forum. All people seems to prefer to use a pc, a raspberry pi or even a microwave instead a real Amiga.
These Amigans....hehehehe
Amiga today is retrogaming and most retro gamers don't watch if that game run on real or emulated Amiga. If you like that particular game you can have several ways to play it.
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Old 11 October 2020, 19:24   #171
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Originally Posted by Chucky View Post
I have described that gazillion times.. it is a closed one-man show.
..
in short: not a 060 not even a motorola cpu.. it is a compatible cpu to some extend. but it is as motrorola true as a AMD is intel-true.
so I want a 060 core. not a weird unsupported fork.
So what if it's closed source? It's not like any of Motorola's 680x0 CPUs are open source? And let's imagine if the Vampire team purchased the rights to the Motorola brand so they could label it as the Motorola 68080. Would that make a difference? It shouldn't because the product is still the same.

And yes, the AMD/Intel comparison could make sense, and when AMD moved ahead of Intel, I went with AMD. K6 CPUs had inferior FPUs to Intel's at the time, but if you were not doing stuff that was heavily reliant on an FPU, the K6 could still be a good choice. I'm not choosing a CPU based on the name on the box, but on whether it is suitable for what I need it to do. Brand-loyalty is weird.

I am using 68000/020/030 systems along with my Vampire system. They all have their place and do things differently. The Vampire may not be suitable for all (and neither is 040/060 as I see no reason why I should get any of those), but the 080 is very much a part of the Amiga family if you ask me.
040/060 broke a lot of compatibility with 020/030 as they killed off some instructions from being run natively. In effect, they then had to be emulated..

Discussing 060 cycle-accuracy seems odd to me since 060 is not even cycle-accurate with itself due to its cache and pipeline. Cycle-accuracy makes sense for running software that was written for the plain 68000 7MHz as it could sometimes break if the CPU was not cycle-accurate, but this should never be the case for software that was made for later systems as its design forced programmers to write software that didn't rely on cycle-accuracy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kipper2k View Post
it appears this thread seems to be descending into anarchy and flaming, there seems to be a pattern and definately heading off topic. shame
It was pretty much inevitable from how the thread was kicked off by the OP.
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Old 11 October 2020, 19:40   #172
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K6 CPUs had inferior FPUs to Intel's at the time
Well yes, but it was basically NextGen which (just like K5) used internal RISC Core and was winning with Pentium per clock in integer. Since K5 AMD wasn't cloner anymore.
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Discussing 060 cycle-accuracy seems odd to me since 060 is not even cycle-accurate with itself due to its cache and pipeline
+1
Quote:
It's not like any of Motorola's 680x0 CPUs are open source?
Sure but still, it's so fancy now... open source. That's usually something ppl would like to have because they can't get anything done on their own and would like to pay nothing to the guys who actually can. OpenSource only has a meaning if ppl creating forks from the original make some improvements which can get back to the source AFAIK TG68 sources aren't in any particular development fever atm. But - with sufficient userbase (so ppl having more and more compatible hardware) - it could kickstart development. I honestly doubt there'd be as big userbase as V2+V4 though. I believe I said that before - community is fragmented and there's a lot of tension between each group. There is no hardware to satisfy everyone. But - it's always good to have a choice.
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Old 11 October 2020, 19:59   #173
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the reason I have issues with 080 being closed is many:
1. they cannot proof the interesting info that the "080" might actually be a ripoff of the coldfire core with TG68k addons

2. if gunnar gets hit by a bus, gets struck hard of covid or so. the "080" will stop being produced and developed leaving it in a non-finished state..


The motorola cpus are closed yes.. but they are not in current development so things is as it is.. static..
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Old 11 October 2020, 21:19   #174
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Originally Posted by Steril707 View Post
And that's the problem, folks. You can make your cards as fast as you want, but in the end all you do is making your Amigas more PC like, without the benefit of better software using that.
I think only a minority wants that - most of the community want to use the software they are familiar with in the best possible performance. Until 2000 the Amiga was my main computer and I want to use this "system" in the best possible way. From that time there is enough software that benefits from the 68080. If you only had an A500 and played games from floppy disk then the V2 is overkill - I think it depends on the point when you made your first Amiga experience.

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In the beginning I hoped that there would be a slew of new software (or even coders coming back?) benefitting from the new possibilities of the Apollo core. Looked good in the beginning, with that Cannonball port and other stuff.
I never had the expectation and I don't believe that it will ever come. But there were made already some ports that ultimately benefited the whole Amiga community - that's a point which is always ignored. (e.g Diablo, OpenBor ect.) But a new flood of software will certainly not come in the future - why should it be? Even the actually already outdated PPC systems are much faster than the 68080.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucky View Post
1. they cannot proof the interesting info that the "080" might actually be a ripoff of the coldfire core with TG68k addons
This is a conspiracy theory and you know it

Last edited by AMike; 11 October 2020 at 21:38.
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Old 11 October 2020, 21:23   #175
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Amiga today is retrogaming and most retro gamers don't watch if that game run on real or emulated Amiga. If you like that particular game you can have several ways to play it.
Perhaps that is the problem. Retrogamers only needs an a500.
But I use my Amigas everyday only because I love to use them.
I browse to the amiga websites, ftp, even code with amiblitz or stormc...all this things are easier with rtg and a fast cpu with the amiga keyboard taste so I see vampire perfect to do that.
I have an ocs a500 to play classic games.
As I have said...lucky us to have hardware.

Last edited by tolkien; 11 October 2020 at 21:47.
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Old 12 October 2020, 09:28   #176
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Oh, everything just works out of the box?

Yes... so few years after V2 - what libs are rewritten to support those features from AC68080? Yeah, exactly. Suddenly jpeg decoding done on STM32 or ARM inside ZynQ (@ARM as well) makes sense. And with Cyclone V SE V4 could also use ARM inside FPGA to do things faster the same way now use new 080 features to do things faster. The only difference would be... well, you could run that mpeg2 with higher resolution perhaps? Gunnar knew that. Gunnar chose AMMX anyway.

AMMX does leave the door open for an ASIC to be made with the core. When they started the project this was of course not feasible, but with each passing year it gets cheaper and cheaper to roll a custom ASIC. It used to cost as much as buying a luxury jet but now it's getting down into luxury car territory. I have a feeling it will happen sometime soon.

That 68080 ASIC isn't gonna come with the ARM core from the FPGA.
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Old 12 October 2020, 10:33   #177
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Originally Posted by Chucky View Post
the reason I have issues with 080 being closed is many:
1. they cannot proof the interesting info that the "080" might actually be a ripoff of the coldfire core with TG68k addons
It's the people who make claims that Gunnar infringes copyrights that have to prove he does. Copyright infringement is a criminal offense and thus so is accusing somebody of commiting copyright infringement. To be more frank: you are committing a criminal offense unless you can prove Gunnar has actually infringed any copyrights.

I can tell you: for anyone that understands a bit about how CPUs work it is obvious that the 080 has no similarity to any other softcore with partial or full 68k compatibility.


Quote:
2. if gunnar gets hit by a bus, gets struck hard of covid or so. the "080" will stop being produced and developed leaving it in a non-finished state..
You keep repeating this stuff despite having been told several times that there are several people with access to the 080 source code. Furthermore there are at least three professional CPU developers that have contributed to the 080.


Quote:
The motorola cpus are closed yes.. but they are not in current development so things is as it is.. static..
Which gives them WHAT advantage exactly over the "Gunnar gets hit by a bus" scenario?
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Old 12 October 2020, 13:56   #178
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Hopefully this is only an example and no one is going to get a bus.
Keep the good work on this
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Old 12 October 2020, 21:30   #179
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Copyright infringement is a criminal offense and thus so is accusing somebody of commiting copyright infringement. To be more frank: you are committing a criminal offense unless you can prove Gunnar has actually infringed any copyrights.
oh the kult of vampire want to silence people by threats! oh I am not impressed.. next step is SWATing me aswell? actually I am more and more sure of that there is someting weird here.. and the actions taken by the vampteam. you know posting about falsly accusing people for stuff. this is methods that makes me more and more sure it is sure not all ok here.
as soon as there are critics, the team will do what they can to silence everyone.


Quote:
You keep repeating this stuff despite having been told several times that there are several people with access to the 080 source code. Furthermore there are at least three professional CPU developers that have contributed to the 080.
And those are? all I can see always is Gunnars name popping up.
(but ok. I am not that interested of the 080 development I must say.. as it is so far away from an real amiga you can get that still kinda runs the code.

Quote:
Which gives them WHAT advantage exactly over the "Gunnar gets hit by a bus" scenario?
as the 060 is done. it is not in development, you are not dependent on the development of it more. sure availability is a thing for sure. but that have nothing to do with the crew behind the development.
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Old 12 October 2020, 21:31   #180
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Hopefully this is only an example and no one is going to get a bus.
Keep the good work on this
if there are people who doesn't get it is an example. that person is not a very bright person..
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