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Old 31 January 2019, 09:52   #61
kolla
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Picasso 96 driver for ECS/AGA

This is not about open source or not, that's just something Damien misunderstood. This native driver does nothing more than loading rtg.library and set two env variables, you can do the same in three lines of existing commands in startup-sequence.

However, the question raised here was, does this replace FBlit, to which the answer is - not really. For several reasons, one being that it relies on P96 (well, rtg.library), another being that it doesn't give fine grained control about what parameters to tweak for individual programs, or for certain hardware and software combinations. With P96 everything is easy, it either works, or it doesn't. If it doesn't, the software is buggy and you should not use it, but you can also "turn off" P96 to various degrees, manually reset P96 env vars before starting "buggy" programs etc or worst case remove the "driver" and reboot before starting them. Simple and user-friendly, just like the developers intended.

Last edited by kolla; 31 January 2019 at 09:57.
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Old 31 January 2019, 10:40   #62
Thomas Richter
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Originally Posted by kolla View Post
This is not about open source or not, that's just something Damien misunderstood. This native driver does nothing more than loading rtg.library and set two env variables, you can do the same in three lines of existing commands in startup-sequence.
And what about it? Why is that "bad"? It is exactly what is needed to get its job done. What exactly need a tool to do to be "real"? Does it have to be longer than a certain size? Does it have to be more complex? The complexity is already there - in the rtg.library. If "all things are so simple and so obvious", why did it take years for such a tiny tool to materialize?
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However, the question raised here was, does this replace FBlit, to which the answer is - not really. For several reasons, one being that it relies on P96 (well, rtg.library),
Why is "depends on rtg.library" a criteron for "does not replace Fblit"? As in "not conforming to your political agenda"? Actually, it pretty much does everything FBlit does, actually even more than that. It pretty much replaces a majority of the graphics calls and implements blitting though the CPU - so isn't that "real enough"?
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another being that it doesn't give fine grained control about what parameters to tweak for individual programs, or for certain hardware and software combinations.
And you still failed to explain why that is necessary or desirable. In fact, it is just confusing, and people get things parametrized wrong. Why do I need to set parameters in first place, please? Just run the thing, and it works. That's it. What else do you need? The principle is easy to explain "run blitting by the CPU". That is the job, that is what is done. What do you expect to "work better" if there are many settings users just get wrong (and did wrong, in the past). But hey, here you go: Adding "settings" to "such an obvious three line command script tool" should be easy for you, right? Who is stopping you?
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Originally Posted by kolla View Post
With P96 everything is easy, it either works, or it doesn't.
Is there any indication that "it does not"? What exactly are you trying to say here? Kolla, this is just another example for "complaining for the purpose of complaining", as always. Why don't you finally get up, and - if you like Fblit so much - get the thing fixed. I did my part homework. Sure, an easy exercise, done in 30 minutes, but a successful one, thanks to the work Tobias and Alex invested into this years before FBlit came to be, actually.
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Old 31 January 2019, 11:04   #63
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Back in the trenches again, huh? I didn't say it was "bad", I am saying that it is "nothing new", that what your "driver" does, has been possible decades. Yet what do people use? FBlit.

I have zero political agenda here, this is not about politics (though with Hyperion, it is becoming increasingly politizised - do I want to support a Belgian nationalist with money? Probably not.)

If P96 fully replaces FBlit, then why has it not replaced FBlit fully already? Are people just stupid for using FBlit over P96? What about the posts on this very thread, from users who wonder if P96 on native chipset can ever reach the speed they see with FBlit? Are they all lying, or being delusional? Are they all just confused sheeple minded "most users" who despite your efforts, have managed to misconfigure their systems? I don't "like" FBlit any more than I "like" P96, or whatever other random "hacks&patches" we end up using to circumvent the miserable state of Amiga hardware and OS, I also don't have a need to fix anything, all bugs and issues are pretty much well known and well documented.

Nothing is stopping me from doing whatever, and the ONLY thing I complain about here, is your behaviour, Thomas.

Last edited by kolla; 31 January 2019 at 11:20.
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Old 31 January 2019, 12:22   #64
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Back in the trenches again, huh? I didn't say it was "bad", I am saying that it is "nothing new", that what your "driver" does, has been possible decades.
And your point is? Probably only few people knew. Making it accessible with a tiny tool is helpful.

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I have zero political agenda here, this is not about politics (though with Hyperion, it is becoming increasingly politizised - do I want to support a Belgian nationalist with money? Probably not.)
I wouldn't declare a statement like this (especially the "nationalist" - where did this pop up from?) as "no agenda".

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If P96 fully replaces FBlit, then why has it not replaced FBlit fully already? Are people just stupid for using FBlit over P96?
Uninformed, yes. Given that the variables were somewhat hidden, no surprise.

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Originally Posted by kolla View Post
What about the posts on this very thread, from users who wonder if P96 on native chipset can ever reach the speed they see with FBlit? Are they all lying, or being delusional?
Doing things "right" has a higher overhead. P96 has different development priorities: Correctness over speed.

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Nothing is stopping me from doing whatever, and the ONLY thing I complain about here, is your behaviour, Thomas.
I suggest you go all along and read your posts, for a time being. You have been banned already from two forums - did you ever wonder why that happened?
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Old 31 January 2019, 12:27   #65
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Only forum I was "banned" from was apollo-core (I wasn't even banned, I stopped posting, and months later found out that in order to post again, I would need to send Gunnar a copy of my passport...)
So, from where do you get your "facts"?
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Old 31 January 2019, 12:32   #66
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Originally Posted by Thomas Richter View Post
And your point is? Probably only few people knew. Making it accessible with a tiny tool is helpful.
I never said it isn't helpful. My points are _very_ simple
* P96 will never fully replace FBlit, they cover different use cases
* _IF_ P96 was to fully replace FBlit, it would need to become more "complicated"

Quote:
Doing things "right" has a higher overhead. P96 has different development priorities: Correctness over speed.
Indeed, which is _why_ P96 will never replace FBlit - users are more than happy to compromise between speed and "correctness", you are not.

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Originally Posted by Thomas Richter View Post
(especially the "nationalist" - where did this pop up from?)
"pop up from"? The people who run Hyperion did not just "pop up", they also have lives outside of Amiga and some are, or have been, politically active. Do your own research.

And I suggest that you instead jumping on me on every occasion, rather answers the questions asked by "real" users... (because, it is well established fact that I am not a real user)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark sealey View Post
Will this be better than using Fblit on my 020/33 A600 ECS...? OD3.1.4 ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by utri007 View Post
Thomas : Any change to get it faster? performance it is noticeable slower than FBLit.

Last edited by kolla; 31 January 2019 at 13:07.
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Old 31 January 2019, 13:01   #67
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I really don't get what you discuss here. Thomas created his own solution that believes it is better. If anyone else prefer to use anything else, we are all free to do.

I would prefer to see a productive discussion on how this works in our systems, and if it has any problems, report back so that the author can fix them. Anything else is pretty out of topic, in my opinion.
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Old 31 January 2019, 13:23   #68
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I would prefer to see a productive discussion on how this works in our systems, and if it has any problems, report back so that the author can fix them.
Problems have already been described and discredited. Bug reports are not to be posted here, or to be sent to Thomas, but to Individual Computer, the rightful owner of P96. If things are as they normally are with IComp, you can also pretty much forget reporting bugs unless you also buy P96 and register as user. Distribution of rtg.libray in ClassicWB, BestWB, coffin etc is not permitted, as the Picasso96 archive must be complete, and none of the files within changed.
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Old 31 January 2019, 14:31   #69
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Confusing.
OS 3.1.4 comes with icon.library 45.22, while PeterK's icon.library is v46.4 - so which one do you really use?

From the symptoms you describe, it sounds like you are using FText.
yes....im using v46.4 icon library....also ftext and fblit.....i did remove ftext ang got the icon txt back....need to look into it further.
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Old 31 January 2019, 14:42   #70
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Unlike what you seem to imply, I do not earn any money from P96.
Who does earn the money that supposedly goes into the tip jar if somebody pays more than the minimum price of 8€? Jens wrote here that a customer is supposed to pay more than 8€ to "secure further development of P96". This seemed to imply that that money would go to you:

https://www.a1k.org/forum/showpost.p...6&postcount=94
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Old 31 January 2019, 14:46   #71
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Indeed, which is _why_ P96 will never replace FBlit - users are more than happy to compromise between speed and "correctness", you are not.
I don't care whether anything "never replaces" something. I am providing options.

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"pop up from"? The people who run Hyperion did not just "pop up", they also have lives outside of Amiga and some are, or have been, politically active. Do your own research.
No, Kolla. It is you who makes the blame. This is on your agenda.

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And I suggest that you instead jumping on me on every occasion, rather answers the questions asked by "real" users...
Guess how this could be?
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Old 31 January 2019, 14:47   #72
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Who does earn the money that supposedly goes into the tip jar if somebody pays more than the minimum price of 8€?
The answer is: I do not know. It is not going into my pockets. Ask Jens. He's probably better off hiring someone to maintain P96 on his account. I'm only trying to be helpful.
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Old 31 January 2019, 14:56   #73
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Problems have already been described and discredited.
Not "discredited". Rather, "remove all patches, run with original components".

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Bug reports are not to be posted here, or to be sent to Thomas, but to Individual Computer, the rightful owner of P96.
This is not a support forum of iComp, nor is P96 my product, nor am I its maintainer. The only thing I can say is that if I detect and find a bug, I'll try to look into it if there is availability from my side, just be helpful. It is certainly not helpful to post bugs somewhere, hoping that someone will pick them up.

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If things are as they normally are with IComp, you can also pretty much forget reporting bugs unless you also buy P96 and register as user.
It is pretty fair to get support for a product only if you paid for it. Jens isn't the welfare. He's running an enterprise - and paid for P96 as well in case you bother.

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Distribution of rtg.libray in ClassicWB, BestWB, coffin etc is not permitted, as the Picasso96 archive must be complete, and none of the files within changed.
P96 is a commercial product. As with all products, you cannot redistribute without consulting its owner. This is not surprising at all.
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Old 31 January 2019, 14:58   #74
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Originally Posted by Thomas Richter View Post
I don't care whether anything "never replaces" something. I am providing options.
I also do not care - fantastics, we agree.

Quote:
Guess how this could be?
Because you are more entertained by a verbal trench war with me, rather than replying to those who ask on-topic questions.

Last edited by kolla; 31 January 2019 at 15:27.
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Old 31 January 2019, 15:05   #75
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I strongly suggest that you guys read the Rules & Help and especially the part about Banned Topics...

Save the rubbish about politics for another forum... I won't ask again; enough please and final warning!!!
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Old 31 January 2019, 15:11   #76
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This is not surprising at all.
Responses here on this thread suggests that it is less than obvious for "most users".
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Old 31 January 2019, 15:31   #77
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I tried this driver on my a600 furia 020/33 OS3.1.4 peter k icon lib 45. when booted i had icons but no txt on screen...under icons and Menus.....need test further though.
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yes....im using v46.4 icon library....also ftext and fblit.....i did remove ftext ang got the icon txt back....need to look into it further.
Using a P96 monitor driver (i.e. Native) and FBlit + FText at the same time is a no-go and will very likely cause conflicts.

I think P96 Native, CgxAga and FBlit are 3 alternative options now and I can't understand the dispute about them. One solution might be more system friendly and another a little bit faster, so it's up to the user to compare them and make a decision.

Fixing or optimizing the code of another author is always very difficult. All these 3 programs are quite complex and there are a lot of hidden dependencies in the code, relations between the functions and subroutines which you don't know if it's not your own code. So you can easily break something else while you're trying to fix a bug or improve speed. It can take a lot of time to understand every code line of an unknown program even if it is open source. The best (or worst) example is DOpus5.
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Old 31 January 2019, 16:07   #78
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"it's hard" and "only a few people understand it" are not valid reasons to not open source. I'm sure the Linux kernel isn't without complexities but somehow they manage to struggle though...

Commercial and intellectual property reasons are much more persuasive. Why not open source? "It's mine and I shall do with it what I want". Fair enough. But faux technical considerations are not.

Open source doesn't mean it has to be a developmental wild west. The experts who work on the code now could continue to do so and control the process, and others could learn from their experience.
Thank you for pointing this out!

A problem often seen in old closed source code is the lack of comprehensive comments and documentation, that makes it hard to understand - but still this is of course no valid argument to keep such code closed ...

The statement OSS is not good or not helpful when it comes to Amiga is just evidently wrong.
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Old 31 January 2019, 16:22   #79
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Jesus christ on an e-bike, how come every single time Kolla, Gorf and Grond join the discussion on whatever topic inhere, that thread instantly becomes a constant flow of closed source whining, derailing, passive-aggressive behaviour and dick waving contest?

@Thomas Richer
A huge thank you for all the time, dedication and passion you're still putting in keeping our beloved Amiga somewhat alive: even though I'm a sad panda in knowing you're not gaining anything from them, I bought both OS3.1.4 and the updated P96 to show you some kind of support.
Should you have a Paypal account, please let me know and I'll be more than happy to send you a little tip: you truly deserve a gold medal, not this constant and tireless bashing.
Also, there's an useful "add user to ignore list" function on this very forum, maybe it's time you should start making use of it.
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Old 31 January 2019, 16:38   #80
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I bought both OS3.1.4 and the updated P96 to show you some kind of support
So Thomas's reply to my question wasn't helpful to you in assessing how much support buying OS3.1.4 and P96 actually means to Thomas? And, hence, my question was just "closed source whining, derailing, passive-aggressive behaviour and dick waving contest"? I would prefer my money going to Thomas than to somebody who wants to bum an extra euro off me for some alleged good reason.
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