Trying to make a "Gaming PC" for Amiga, overheat and CPU issues

[BlitzOreo]

Hello.


For context, I only got into Amiga to play games, specifically the Amiga-exclusive ones, if there's any available outside Amiga and they're better, I use those instead because emulating something like a Sega Genesis is way easier than emulating any Amiga.


My intentions are to make the best and fastest Amiga possible, I don't mind accuracy or compatibility too much as long as it's stable by itself. However, I have issues with this because...


1. I have noticed that 68030, which despite being slower than 68040 or 68060, is still way more compatible than the mentioned latter two. Why? I would prefer to use 68060 because the speed difference is clearly visible.
2. Anytime I setup the CPU to not emulate it cycle-exact, fastest possible, enabling JIT...My very own CPU (an AMD Ryzen 7 5800X) goes on a crazy overheat, reaching even up to 80c.


I play my games on WHDLoad instead of using the ADF disks, I've found it to be much better that way, seems the loading times are a bit better too.



One of my rather obsessive "quirks" is that, I absolutely loathe loading times. Even just waiting 5 seconds is too much for me, I want it to be at the very least less than 3 seconds. This is why I want my Amiga to be as fast as possible and not some "compatible" yet incredibly slow Amiga 500 emulation.



I have included the configuration, it could be there's something wrong with it. I would also include the Workbench hard-disk file that I use but it's 100mb.


For more information that the hard-disk file would provide but due to size limits and all, I have used MikeyGRetro's fantastic tutorials to setup my own Amiga workbench, in which case, I'm using Better Workbench 4.3 and I have installed the Picasso96 library.
Also, since I want to use 68060, I have the library itself which I have acquired from http://phase5.a1k.org/



Also if more info is necessary on the hardware that I have and use...
M2 SSD NVME Gen 3 (This is where I have my WinUAE and emulated files)

Nvidia RTX 2070

Ryzen 7 5800X

Windows 10 64-bit

[Seiya]

loading time is not depending of your PC. Emulator emulate exactly the loading time from disk. If you want to speed you have to use Turbo loading or set ADF loading at 800%.

WinUAE emulate right speed for games that run on stock A500 and stock A1200. You emulate at perfection 68040 or 68060 (without jit) with Core2 Duo or simlar.

Modern PC it could good if you use WinUAE to run at maximum CPU speed to run games complex like Quake and Quake II.

For all other games you will use your Ryzen at idle speed


WinUAE has 2 speed setting:
Real and Max

Real: emulating stock Amiga 1200 and stock Amiga 500 or you can set CPU multiplier manually (cycle exact enabled)

Max: emulating 680x0 at maximun speed based on the real speed of your Ryzen (cycle exact disabled) (your ryzen cpu run at 100% speed, so maximun speed also your cpu fan)

[rutra80]

Originally Posted by BlitzOreo

I would prefer to use 68060 because the speed difference is clearly visible.

You are imagining things - in emulation more complex the CPU, more slower it is emulated. Emulated 68020 will be faster than emulated 68060 - use software compiled for 68020 if possible, eventually with FPU.

2. Anytime I setup the CPU to not emulate it cycle-exact, fastest possible, enabling JIT...My very own CPU (an AMD Ryzen 7 5800X) goes on a crazy overheat, reaching even up to 80c.

On CPU tab try dragging CPU Idle slider right.

[derSammler]

1. I have noticed that 68030, which despite being slower than 68040 or 68060, is still way more compatible than the mentioned latter two. Why? I would prefer to use 68060 because the speed difference is clearly visible.

Yes, the 68030 is pretty much the pinnacle when it comes to speed combined with compatibility. It's also the best choice for a WHDLoad machine.

The 040 and 060 were dramatically different in design. They lost lots of functions older CPUs had and the bus interface was changed. The latter means for example that a 040/060 can not access chip memory as fast as a 030 can, which will cause slow-downs on real hardware with many games. And, as you already noticed, compatibility leaves a lot to be desired. But keep in mind no one back then bought a 060 to play old games.

[lmimmfn]

AMD Zen chips are well known to be far to aggressive in terms of operating at high frequencies while sacrificing temperatures, so 80C is normal for a 5800X under load. The first AMD rig i built for a relative had a 3600 and i was shocked that with the stock cooler it would reach 90C in games.

I have both AMD 5700G and 7800X3D rigs but i set the PBO/curve optimizer(around -20 to -30 per core) in the BIOS and they both operate a lot cooler than stock settings.

[BlitzOreo]

Originally Posted by Seiya

loading time is not depending of your PC. Emulator emulate exactly the loading time from disk. If you want to speed you have to use Turbo loading or set ADF loading at 800%.

Are you sure? I use WHDload for games, it's a hard disk drive, not a floppy disk.
Also I do not want to play any demanding game like Quake on Amiga emulation at all, so don't worry about that.

Originally Posted by rutra80

You are imagining things - in emulation more complex the CPU, more slower it is emulated. Emulated 68020 will be faster than emulated 68060 - use software compiled for 68020 if possible, eventually with FPU.

On CPU tab try dragging CPU Idle slider right.

Alright, this gives me more questions:
Will emulated 68030 be better or worse than 68020?
By "use software compiled for 68020 if possible, eventually with FPU", what do you mean exactly? If possible, a small tutorial would be nice, the what do's I'm sure can be learned from the manuals in those softwares.

As for the CPU Idle, it doesn't seem to do much on my end, I set it to 90% and it does nothing.

Originally Posted by derSammler

Yes, the 68030 is pretty much the pinnacle when it comes to speed combined with compatibility. It's also the best choice for a WHDLoad machine.

The 040 and 060 were dramatically different in design. They lost lots of functions older CPUs had and the bus interface was changed. The latter means for example that a 040/060 can not access chip memory as fast as a 030 can, which will cause slow-downs on real hardware with many games. And, as you already noticed, compatibility leaves a lot to be desired. But keep in mind no one back then bought a 060 to play old games.

Interesting, I myself have tried this tool for Amiga called Sysinfo, the latest 4.5 BETA version and from comparison, the 68040 and 68060 are the same but the 68030 is apparently "faster" in mhz but apparently the chip speed is extremely low? Makes no sense to me and based on my own empirical data, the 68060 is faster anyway.
It might be because I use the cycle-exact function, it at least prevents my CPU from overheating.

Originally Posted by lmimmfn

AMD Zen chips are well known to be far to aggressive in terms of operating at high frequencies while sacrificing temperatures, so 80C is normal for a 5800X under load. The first AMD rig i built for a relative had a 3600 and i was shocked that with the stock cooler it would reach 90C in games.

I have both AMD 5700G and 7800X3D rigs but i set the PBO/curve optimizer(around -20 to -30 per core) in the BIOS and they both operate a lot cooler than stock settings.

A bit of a surprise, the fact it reaches 90c on games sounds like danger, if it was benchmark tests I would understand it, either way...I don't want an emulator to overheat my CPU to 90c, hell not even more demanding ones like Xemu or Xenia reach higher than 76c. I don't think an Amiga emulator should have higher than 70c.






I can't seem to make an emulated 68030 run any faster than the 68060, let alone avoid overheating my own CPU. The 68020 has it worse, as well.

[rutra80]

Originally Posted by BlitzOreo

Alright, this gives me more questions:
Will emulated 68030 be better or worse than 68020?

Emulated 68030 will be slower than emulated 68020.

By "use software compiled for 68020 if possible, eventually with FPU", what do you mean exactly? If possible, a small tutorial would be nice, the what do's I'm sure can be learned from the manuals in those softwares.

If you have software like Lightwave or Quake compiled for 020, 030, 040, 060, emulating a 68020 and using the 020 version shall be the fastest. If it needs FPU, enable 68881 or 68882.

As for the CPU Idle, it doesn't seem to do much on my end, I set it to 90% and it does nothing.

Try 100% and -10% CPU Speed.

If you want speed, don't use cycle-exact especially with CPU better than 020 as it is useless then.
Also if you choose Fastest possible don't be surprised that your CPU runs as hot as possible.

[Dunny]

The Amiga had no concept of "down time" or idling, the CPU ran as fast as it could, all the time. An emulator, when set to emulate as fast as possible, will consume 100% of your CPU time if you let it, and that will cause heat. The only way around this, which WinUAE does, is to insert idle time periodically.

The more idle time you insert, the slower overall your emulation will be. If you match the original speeds of the CPUs (Say, a 50Mhz CPU), then the host CPU will spend much of its time idling and temperatures will drop, while still being a reasonably fast Amiga. You're running a Ryzen so temps will be high. Mine (Ryzen 9 3900X) regularly hits 100C under load, and idles around 50C to 60C.

If you're emulating as fast as possible, then 68030 will run a touch faster than 68060 but will be hardly noticeable. Generally speaking, the less complex your emulated Amiga, the faster it will go at full speed. No (or very, very little) software was written for anything greater than the 68020.

[Rotareneg]

Originally Posted by Dunny

The Amiga had no concept of "down time" or idling, the CPU ran as fast as it could, all the time.

That's not entirely true: Exec on 2.0+ uses the STOP instruction when idle, which does halt the CPU until an interrupt starts it back up.

Also, WinUAE is mainly single threaded as far as I know, so if their CPU is overheating from one loaded core, something is very wrong.

[Toni Wilen]

As was already said, latest Ryzen models boost as much as possible and get up to 100 degrees or so almost immediately. Older generation are not as aggressive but still do it. Recent CPU models (both Intel and AMD) do this, basically it is sort of automatic overclock. It is normal. Ignore it. Unless it causes too much fan noise..

It might look worse when only single core is in 100% use because low usage of other cores leaves more power and temperature headroom for single core.

2.0+ uses the STOP instruction when idle

1.x also uses STOP. But the problem is that emulator needs to emulate everything and if emulator wants to sleep, everything sleeps.

CPU Idle generally only works in WB (when OS in running). Games almost never idle.

When running whdload games, usually it is good idea to use whdload start/stop scripts to switch to slower config during the game if you want to use fast WB config. (Unless game needs fast CPU). Approximate + CPU speed >0% might work.

Fastest possible CPU (=CPU mode where any free host CPU time is used for CPU emulator) + CPU speed slider adjusted introduces extra idle time. This is probably most useful option without causing too much slowdown. Approximate CPU mode always idles when there is nothing else to do.

CPU choice does not matter much, all of them have same emulated speed in normal fast emulation modes.

[dreadnought]

If you worry about the temps get a gaming cooler. There are some very good options that shouldn't cost more than 50 USD.

But, as it has been already mentioned, 80C CPU temperature is not a big deal these days (the latest Ryzens have 90C as "normal" operating temp). I just find the extra heat blowing out of the computer annoying in my already-hot place.

[van_dammesque]

IIRC Latest CPU temp are much higher than they used to be because they now measure the junction temperature and not the package temperature.
Older CPUs measured the package temp, now the junction temp is measured, i.e. the thermal probe is much closer the CPU 'guts', hence the increase.

To emulate the 060 vs 000 will require more real CPU usage on your host PC for the former. I use an 040 for my WinUAE setup just for nostalgic reasons and play games via WHDLoad and everything is fine.
Some games require to be run from floppy, i.e. ADF files, the problem I notice is that most games crash when running at 800% floppy emulation.

[lmimmfn]

Originally Posted by BlitzOreo

A bit of a surprise, the fact it reaches 90c on games sounds like danger, if it was benchmark tests I would understand it, either way...I don't want an emulator to overheat my CPU to 90c, hell not even more demanding ones like Xemu or Xenia reach higher than 76c. I don't think an Amiga emulator should have higher than 70c.

I tuned that 3600 with curve optimizer and PBO getting 98% of the same performance but max 75C with the stock cooler.

Its not something i would worry about, i had an x58 system from 2011 and in 2014 i stuck a $80 x5650 in it, base all core frequency of that chip was 2.66MHz but i overclocked it to 4.2. That chip was an absolute beast of a chip for OC but wow the heat, using a H100i AIO temps would max at 75C but was like an electric heat blower in terms. One day it started randomly shutting down, several times on the same day, i realised the AIO wasnt working properly and the CPU temp was hitting its TjMax of 110C before shutting off.

So there are plenty of protection mechanisms in place to prevent any chip damage in terms of temps. I had considered getting a 7700X instead of the 7800X3D i eventually got but decided against the 7700X just because of the default AMD higher temps.

Usually higher temps are associated with high core usage and/or AVX256 instructions(not sure if UAE uses these). Generally emulators are heavier on the CPU than the GPU so they usually have higher CPU usage than games.

[BlitzOreo]

Based on all this info, it seems that emulating a 68020 or 68030 might be better, as long as I can avoid the overheat (which yes, I know you all explained how it's normal for Ryzen, but as Toni said the fan noise does bother me when I'm merely playing old games instead of high-demanding ones) and most importantly I can make it as fast or faster than a 68060 without breaking compatibility.

In regards to loading times, I know that just like today, the RAM, Disk speed and CPU are all intervened together. It's why I have 128mb RAM on Z3 and why I can't use anything below the 68000.

But to be honest, I'm not sure how to proceed now. The current setup I have seems to work best, but some games are incompatible, making me use 68030 which for some reason has slower loading times but the 68020 has it worse.

Originally Posted by van_dammesque

To emulate the 060 vs 000 will require more real CPU usage on your host PC for the former. I use an 040 for my WinUAE setup just for nostalgic reasons and play games via WHDLoad and everything is fine.
Some games require to be run from floppy, i.e. ADF files, the problem I notice is that most games crash when running at 800% floppy emulation.

Do you actually have no issues at all with a 68040? Because in my case, it's kinda like the 68060 where some games don't work yet the loading times are extremely fast.

Few good examples games not working are...Menace, Monster Business, All New World of Lemmings

[Mclane]

You can't bully the games in to working, if they don't like that CPU they simply won't work. Remember, these super fast chips were never that intended for games, they were more for productivity software. Some games like F-18 Interceptor beg for a fast CPU and look great when running but if you leave the demo running, then sometimes the fighter slams in to the landscape as a result of the calculations being off.

[BlitzOreo]

Wanted to make an update:

After learning a bit more about emulating the Amiga, I've tried 68020 with the fastest speed possible, even with JIT enabled. I've set my Idle to 0%, since Toni said it does nothing in games (However, I still recommend having it anyway just in case you also use the Workbench like me)

To reduce the heat, I've simply set my CPU Throttle to -50% (-40% seems to be better because the former has small hitches sometimes)

Some games are, of course, not compatible because...Well, I'm gonna GUESS for I do not know, that they were made to have a cycle-exact going on. This includes Menace.
Other than that, the games where I had issues with running it on a 68060? Gone.

The worst temperatures I get now are 70C, never higher than max 75C though, I consider that good enough.

Thanks to everyone who participated here, I learned a lot more about Amiga emulation.
Also, glad to finally see people that are older than me

[Mclane]

Originally Posted by BlitzOreo

Also, glad to finally see people that are older than me

Older?

How very dare you sir, I prefer, more seasoned

Don't worry, the playing and emulation itch does not go away with age