Amiga 1200 maintenance after 20+ years in attic

[dlfrsilver]

Originally Posted by project23

That's fine, its another way of doing it - as for the most efficient, i'm not sure what metric you're using to define this?

But seriously this isn't 'tweezers vs air', this is 'air should NEVER BE USED' DANGER DANGER AAAAAAH!

Ya know? You've got your way and it sounds like it works great, why not add some more information so that the OP can gain some useful knowledge of the technique and perhaps some good budget tools he can pick up?



Then with respect, you're 'doing it wrong' - meaning I think perhaps you've given up too easily, or some other condition has made your mind up for you. It is certainly not uncomfortable (I even have a bracket set up to hold my air gun if necessary) - and its incredibly precise with the smallest nozzle (the size of the cap).

Kind regards as always,

John

EDIT: How the hell can an iron/tweezers be any more comfortable than an air gun?!

How ? I'm heating precisely and accurately the 2 pads. The SMD cap is coming straight.

You'll never beat me at disoldering caps with hot air. I'll remove 5 when you'll remove 2

[project23]

Originally Posted by dlfrsilver

You'll never beat me at disoldering caps with hot air. I'll remove 5 when you'll remove 2

...What the hell is this? Seriously, are you sure you're replying to the right post? Who said it was a competition, and when did I say I was faster than anybody at anything? Jesus, you're forty-one?! Again, are you sure you're replying to the right post here? Because you're displaying all the civility of a bragging school child.

Originally Posted by dlfrsilver

How ? I'm heating precisely and accurately the 2 pads. The SMD cap is coming straight.

So it works fine then, so much so that for you claim to be some kind of olympic air SMD removal expert.

Let me just quote your original post again...

Originally Posted by dlfrsilver

I tried "hot air" on a non working PCB, and it's imprecise at best and uncomfortable.

Between the implied ridicule of the otherwise unnecessary quotation marks, and the claims of poor precision (at best) - not to mention the discomfort - how is this in any way concordant with your later response?!

It's one or the other - its either a workable and useful method such that you're able to double my speed, and just like the tweezers achieve good results, or its a ridiculous method that warrants the kind of schoolyard attitude you've apparently resurrected from 1991.

John

[project23]

By the way how does any of the crap posted here from either nexus or dlfrsilver actually help the OP exactly?

Neither of them answer any of his questions, neither of them give any advice (other than to ignore mine and later daedelus's), and both of them serve only to fan the flames of a completely unnecessary 'discussion' not even involving the OP in any way.

What an absolutely disgusting and unnecessary display of immature attitude in a thread started by a guy asking for help from the community from the first time.

The pair of you, even if you disagreed strongly with the suggestions made, could have made your own suggestions with civility and respect.

It's honestly shameful.

[nexus]

air shouldnt be used i stand by what i said
and it is a danger you are not supposed to heat up caps
when using a iron you are only heating that pad for a few seconds
hot air you are heating more than just the pad you are hitting the entire cap and other surrounding components
that heat can also lift traces etc
and like said above it doesnt make sense when it isnt faster and risk doing more damage to the PCB traces etc etc

[nexus]

excuse me your advice is retarded i gave him the correct advice pages ago maybe you should read
your advice and his was retarded and helps the OP 0
you do not know what you are talking about it is obvious
taking smd caps off of old motherboards with hotair is shameful
people using hotair must not be able to use a iron correctly and should stop giving advice

[project23]

Originally Posted by nexus

air shouldnt be used i stand by what i said
and it is a danger you are not supposed to heat up caps
when using a iron you are only heating that pad for a few seconds
hot air you are heating more than just the pad you are hitting the entire cap and other surrounding components
that heat can also lift traces etc
and like said above it doesnt make sense when it isnt faster and risk doing more damage to the PCB traces etc etc

You've ignored every response from Daedelus and myself. This says more about you and your consideration of the OP and your willing to actually, rationally, help than anything else. I've linked you to a randomly found datasheet showing that just one particular randomly selected SMD cap will take 250C on a hotplate for 30 seconds in a lab and return to function accurately. Yet it's been ignored.

You're ignoring every fact as it is given to you, and spreading disinformation.

Heating an electrolytic cap is dangerous if the temperature is high enough. This is true. We're talking about temperatures within tolerances given in the data sheets.

Are you telling me 230C from an air gun lifts trace?

I'm not trying to disuade you from using your tweezers, and I note you've ignored my genuine request for more information on some budget tweezers as I'd actually like a pair.

I (and daedelus) are arguing that your assertions about the 'dangers' of using hot air to remove SMD electrolytics are myths brought about as a result of the people using improper technique. I learn to solder before I try to solder. I learn to use an air gun before I use an air gun.

The facts in the various datasheets out there speak for themselves. They speak a lot more than your repeated assertions, which you have made I might add whilst selectively not to respond to the very well made arguments against you.

At this point, you are at best repeating yourself unnecessarily, and at worst trolling. Again - how does this help OP? And please don't say by giving him safety advice because he's already established he's good with an iron, and I've repeatedly advised people to wear goggles and work at the lowest temperature possible. Furthermore the safety of the proper method has been established in fact.

Still - I fully expect this entire post to be ignored, or if i'm really lucky, you'll selectively respond to one simple portion to which you can piece together a bitter retort.

John

[project23]

Originally Posted by nexus

excuse me your advice is retarded i gave him the correct advice pages ago maybe you should read
your advice and his was retarded and helps the OP 0
you do not know what you are talking about it is obvious

Then respond to the factually based replies we have given to you with factually based retorts instead of repeating yourself and resorting to calling people retarded and saying we don't know what we're talking about whilst presenting no evidence whatsoever.

[nexus]

i never called anyone retarded
and im done reading your nonsense
this is all you do all day here in this forum

and yes 230c can lift a trace FFS
hot air can pop the pcb itself and make it garbage
just saying that shows you are not to be giving advice on how to solder

[project23]

Originally Posted by nexus

and im done reading your nonsense

Excellent news! Bye!

Originally Posted by nexus

this is all you do all day here in this forum

Please elaborate? I joined the forum a couple of months ago I think? Because I was having problems with my Furia. Do the readers of this thread a favour please and link to some threads where I do as you say?

Oh but wait... you don't actually say what it is that I do all day on this forum.

Post? That certainly isn't true. Try to help? When I can, I guess. Moan about counterfeit chips and the problems they create in 2018? Sure.

But... nonsense? Where? Show us.

(For the record its 3pm or earlier in the USA right now, on a Thursday. What do you do all day on this forum?)

Originally Posted by nexus

excuse me your advice is retarded...
his was retarded and helps the OP 0

Is it necessary to use this language? To use language that by inference labels the subject as 'retarded'? Do not try and use such a false technicality as to erase what just occurred. Is this the language of a professional, someone who ought to be correcting the advice of others? Or is this the language of a troll, or a child?

You're unable to string a meaningful sentence together or make your 'advice' legible with simple punctuation and you have the audacity to call our advice retarded.

I never asked if hot air could 'pop' a PCB (what the hell does that even mean?!) I asked if 230C of AIR at a distance of an inch or two inches, could damage a PCB. I argue that it won't. Hey maybe i'll try this and post a video!

And again you go on to dodge the most important question. How have you helped the OP. What information - useful information like the choice of a good budget set of tweezers - have you given to the OP? You've dodged every well structured argument against you and now you're choosing to take your ball home.

That's fine by me.

If this thread is left in place, your conduct and the contrast with ours will speak for itself.

To anyone reading: By all means research tweezers, and decide for yourself which method you prefer. Research good youtube tutorials or classes or whatever and you'll find that both are regarded as acceptable by EE's when done correctly. Always do your research. And always take safety with the highest priority, and whenever working with the removal of electrolytic caps of any kind use the lowest temperature possible and always wear safety goggles.

Hopefully this guy will go away now and we can get back on track.

John

[nexus]

i never said i was leaving
and again i never called anyone a retard
thanks for proving that

anyways do not listen to the guy above
as a matter of fact just go on youtube and look up instructional videos from accredited schools
learn from them forget this thread

[project23]

Check out this thread guys:

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=94337

nexus's lack of understanding that an FPGA is itself no different to an ASIC in terms of the logical configuration of the chip speaks volumes for his credibility as a... what... a troll?

EDIT:

Originally Posted by nexus

and again i never called anyone a retard
thanks for proving that

I'm sorry - where do i 'prove' that? I make a logically sound argument that by inference, you are suggesting that the subject is themselves retarded in some way, which is a word i despise by the way - and is totally inappropriate for this scene and forum.

Oh, and the majority of your posts - most of which have the same unwarranted tone I might add - are made long before I joined and in threads that have nothing to do with me.

Do not disparage my reputation or make claims of intelligence or ability without having the back-bone to provide evidence or example.

[nexus]

lol try again
and why are you resorting to derailing this thread now?
i think it should be closed you are out of hand
MOD?

[project23]

Originally Posted by nexus

lol try again
and why are you resorting to derailing this thread now?
i think it should be closed you are out of hand
MOD?

The thread was de-railed in post #29 when you replied to the use of a reflow oven as 'dumb', thus inciting an inflamed response.

You've driven this de-railment all the way good sir, and now that you have no rational retorts you appeal to a moderator to close it down for you.

What a great service to the OP.

I invite a MOD to review all of the posts, decide based on experience whether Daedelus is knowledgeable (i believe he is in the industry) enough to make the counter arguments he did, and decide whether my tone and nature has been even a fraction as inflaming and holier-than-though as yours.

Oh! And i invite a MOD to also investigate whether the nature of myself and Daedelus was good natured and the in the spirit of helping the OP and whether yours was simply to ridicule, and display something of a self-aggrandised nature.

Thanks,

John

EDIT:

I also welcome a MOD to judge this thread and decide whether your disagreements with my original advice could have been phrased in a more civil and helpful way. Further i invite them to judge whether your responses to Daedelus after your first response could have been made - again - in a more civil way, and whether or not any inflammation on our side of the fence was caused by your continued antagonism.

In short - I don't think a reasonable person on this planet would view your responses as those of a decent human being, lending his help to someone requesting it.

[Daedalus]

Originally Posted by nexus

excuse me your advice is retarded i gave him the correct advice pages ago maybe you should read
your advice and his was retarded and helps the OP 0

Wow...

taking smd caps off of old motherboards with hotair is shameful

Wow...

people using hotair must not be able to use a iron correctly and should stop giving advice

Wow...

Some very effective demonstrations of your thought process there. It seems that you get an idea in your head, and no matter how incorrect it is, refuse to let go of it. Everyone else must be wrong, even when all evidence says otherwise. It's a bad thing to lean too heavily on one's own perceived experience. You say you've over 30 years' experience, yet you somehow believed that Amiga 1200 motherboards had been laser soldered, despite the fact that 30 years' experience should immediately tell you many reasons why that's a totally wrong assumption. You also appear to not be bothered reading data sheets, again assuming that your experience will fill in the gaps automatically. That's not how experience works. Yes, you can trust it, but only up to a point. Knowing what you don't know is just as important as knowing what you know.

[project23]

Originally Posted by Daedalus

Knowing what you don't know is just as important as knowing what you know.

Precisely. And i'll be the first (as you well know) to concede to better knowledge on a subject. Wisdom comes from recognising a lack thereof.

[nexus]

why do you both think you speak for everyone just cause you post a book worth of nonsense?
you both are wrong simple as that i disagree with you two stop speaking for everyone you are 1 person
you are never gonna tell me or anyone with years experience who know what they are doing to use hot air over a iron period
next thing you will be telling me to twist caps etc and its ok lol

[project23]

Originally Posted by nexus

why do you both think you speak for everyone just cause you post a book worth of nonsense?
you both are wrong simple as that i disagree with you two stop speaking for everyone you are 1 person
you are never gonna tell me or anyone with years experience who know what they are doing to use hot air over a iron period
next thing you will be telling me to twist caps etc and its ok lol

Dude, just calm down a second and hear me out, okay? Please?

Nobody is trying to tell you to use hot air over an iron.

I advised the hot air method.

You posted with - you have to admit - a rather alarmist response basically saying never under any circumstances use hot air.

We then defended against your assertion, as is our right.

Just as mechanics will argue for days on which technique is better, so will those in the electronics world.

Neither i nor Daedelus have said your method is wrong. In fact i have shown interest and would like to know more.

I'm sure for every bit of literature or respected youtuber you can find telling me that tweezers are the way to go, I could find a similar amount of literature or respected youtuber advising hot air - or even advising both and leaving it up to the user!

Is it really worth us resorting to this sort of mess?

Could you not simply have accepted Daedelus's argument that hot air is not as dangerous as you might have thought (and is used every day), and then given information about the tweezers as requested?

Every bit of negativity here has been unnecessary.

I am appealing to you for that to stop. Now.

Unless you can provide valid counterarguments, I think we can all agree that both the hot air method and the tweezer method are valid solutions to the removal of DEAD SMD caps from a board without damaging the board.

You refuse to use air. That's fine.

I've used air and may one day use tweezers! As a result of your post! So thank you for making me aware of them!

Can we leave it at that now? Please? Because this is getting tiresome.

Kind regards,

John

EDIT: When I say both the tweezer and hot air method are valid solutions, i am of course referring to the correct use of the hot air method - not simply throwing 400 degrees around a board and expecting results.

[nexus]

you should never do it
what he did was use the 1st time at the factory as proof that its ok
well guess what many boards do not make it through that stress 1st time and that is under controlled expensive equipment
anytime you have to heat a board after is damaging this is FACT
so you only use hot air when you absolutely have to as you are stressing many components you cannot control the heat spread you are doing to surrounding components etc and like said you risk that cap blowing or shooting hot liquid at you
many people take the caps off when doing BGA work due to this

again you believe 230c wont fuck traces pads etc
so you have nothing worth telling me

and another thing about hot air you two never brought up HUMIDITY
POPCORNING
its amazing im even having to tell you two this basic stuff

[project23]

*sigh*

I guess we can't just leave it then? You seem hellbent on somehow proving your awesome intelligence on the matter whilst having zero information about the two of us.

Are you seriously telling me that 230C AIR... AIR!!.. blowing from 1-2 inches, for less than a minute, is going to damage PCB traces? You've misquoted me on this now a number of times. You always leave out the fact that I say 230C AIR from a distance of approx 1 inch or so. So at the board its approx what... 200C? Maybe lower? I'm assuming an appropriate airflow rate here, as any reasonable person would. I also say aimed directly (with an appropriately sized nozzle) at the cap. Any heat entering the board is through the cap - that's how the method works. I can put my finger on the board next to the cap and it isn't even hot enough to hurt. You're looking to just melt the solder, not vaporise it. If i made a video testing this, or found a video for you testing this claim (that 230C AIR for a minute or so above a PCB will do no damage), would you back off this 'fact' of yours?

I mean, taking an IRON at a much higher temp to the board itself for a few seconds each pad - as you would normally do when fitting new caps (lets not even mention lead free solder here and the higher temps) - that's not going to damage the board, but AIR for the same amount of time and a good 60 degrees lower will?! As far as controlling the heat spread - the same is true of an iron, especially if you're working with ground planes. Unless you mean airflow, which is what the nozzles, air speed controls, and distance adjustments are for. Again, this needs practice to get right.

Come on dude, just let it go. People do blow caps, and nearly make themselves blind, because they're idiots and they use IRON temps like ~280 or higher and higher temps because they're doing it wrong and aren't getting results. That's not even mentioning the fact that they're not wearing glasses. Oh, and plenty of people have blown up capacitors using an IRON. Does that invalidate the use of an IRON for the fitting of caps? Likewise, i've seen (i've done, in my early days!) some terrible damage to scrap PCB's simply using an IRON! In fact in all my life i've done more board damage with an iron (usually through ignorance, prior to taking this electronics thing seriously) than with air. That's because I didn't approach the AIR solution with ignorance.

They're both skills. They can both be done stupidly or they can both be perfected.

Go hold your iron at 200C on a trace for a minute and tell me what happens. Maybe you'll lose some soldermask, because all of that 200C is directed at that one point and the heat transfer is via direct contact. By the way copper melts at 1084C. PCB is very difficult to burn, but I believe it does scorch which - granted - I would call damage. You know what does cause trace damage? An amateur holding a hot iron to a pad for far too long and then slipping. Disagree?

I don't know wtf you're talking about humidity for when clearly we're discussing hobby electronics done in the open air with (at best usually) a desk fan for dealing with fumes.

I've never seen popcorning on any of the boards i've air-worked. I dunno maybe i'm super lucky. You do realise i'm not using a hair dryer here don't you? I'm not soaking the entire motherboard in 230C for 20 minutes. You know that right?

Why do you refuse to come to an amicable resolution here? Why do you refuse to respond to rational comments, with facts and examples countering your claims?

In fact let me put it this way:

Find me some reputable document, with at least a similar degree of rationale and data (such as the datasheet i posted and the profiles Daedalus mentioned) - that in some way validates your claim that using low temperature air (180-220) for less than a minute, with a tight aim on old waste caps, is bad for the board - and i'll change my tune. I'll concede the valid differences and any ignorance on my part.


I promise you that. I don't mind being wrong about something! It lends a person something called integrity, which builds credibility. If you can show me i'm wrong, i'll concede. But I can assure you i am no idiot, and i'll need actual, real, scientific evidence.

But i'm also certain you won't do it.

This is the last time you'll hear from me, unless you take me up on the above offer. Please lets stop derailing this poor OP's thread. And please refrain from following me around the forum trying to discredit me without basis (sorry, but you seem the type).

C'ya

John

[nexus]

OMG another book of nonsense
i guarantee you have no schooling and do not do this for a living i hope not and i hope you dont resell anything you repaired
i do repairs im sure you could never do eg cutting into layers of pcb to repair traces repairing lifted pads etc etc
till you are at that level you are just wasting your time replying to me

and FYI it says right on the cap 105c that means do not heat past that temp any way or form and it takes you a minute to take off a cap that is way too long heating a board just to take off 1 cap sorry a minute is not fast
iron few seconds
BIG difference heat doesnt not have time to travel and im only heating that pad
very localized
common sense i guess isnt so common
FFS i wouldnt even heat a BGA that long at that temp
230c you keep saying is not low
and to keep something at that temp for this minute you say which im sure its longer than that is nuts
you DO NOT know what you are talking about please stop acting like you do
you have discredited yourself