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Old 23 May 2018, 20:29   #41
commodorejohn
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Originally Posted by brett71 View Post
However, I would really also like to see what kind of original games some people could come up with if the gloves were taken off, i.e. the scenario of a relatively high-end Amiga. For example, a souped up A4000 with an 040 or 060, 32+ MB of fast memory, AGA or RTG-supported graphics, maybe even network support...
The problem with this is, once you start pushing out that far, you're just moving into the PC wheelhouse - which is why so many of the "new releases" for expanded Amiga hardware are actually ports of PC software. It would be nice to see some stuff that really pushes the AGA hardware, but while heavily expanded systems are great if you're using an Amiga as a daily driver/productivity machine, it's kind of irrelevant at best and counterproductive at worst as a game platform.
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Old 23 May 2018, 20:56   #42
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limitations are good and a driver for innovation. Just look at the c64.

Scourge of the Underkind is showing the way with the 1 meg, one floppy, 16 color, ocs target.

that game is going to be the spark that ignites the games development on amiga. Just like knight n grail was for c64.
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Old 24 May 2018, 15:59   #43
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Originally Posted by brett71 View Post
If there were a competition for writing new Amiga games, I agree that one of the requirements should be OCS/ECS, 512kb chip, 512kb fast to keep things at a lowest-common-denominator position.
Even if that was the usual Amiga configuration during the golden days (+ a second floppy drive), i am going to agreed with donnie about "limitations are good and a driver for innovation".

Because that i think that it would be better to have more strict limits for the first competition:
  • OCS
  • 512 KB Chip
  • One executable (sure, you can use compression)
I know that everybody loves a trackloader, but this is a game competition, not a trackloader one.

And this RAM limit will help to: think in the gameplay; less "artist oriented" people to have a chance; the chance of more games get finished.

The games should be submitted by email until the deadline, that it could be 00:00 GMT on Saturday, December 23, 2018. Then along that Saturday, one floppy (or more) will be released with the games as a typical defjam/il scuro/... game compilation.

Votes by email will be accepted until 00:00 GMT on Monday, December 31, 2018. The winners will be announced along that Monday.

With respect to the price, aside of the honor of being the First Winner in the EAB Game compo, it will be accepted donations or sponsorship for encouraging to the participants, feel free to make them. And not only for the winners, you can choose your own categories, for example, the best shoot'em up or the best puzzle game; the game with the best graphics or music; the game using more kittens, ...

I already have experience handling competitions like that in the Amstrad CPC world and i would be happy of hosting this one.

Love or hate?
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Old 24 May 2018, 16:09   #44
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Even if that was the usual Amiga configuration during the golden days (+ a second floppy drive), i am going to agreed with donnie about "limitations are good and a driver for innovation".

Because that i think that it would be better to have more strict limits for the first competition:
  • OCS
  • 512 KB Chip
  • One executable (sure, you can use compression)
I know that everybody loves a trackloader, but this is a game competition, not a trackloader one.

And this RAM limit will help to: think in the gameplay; less "artist oriented" people to have a chance; the chance of more games get finished.
Too limited this, it should either allow only 512kb chip with a track loader or 1mb with a single executable.

Both have pro’s and con’s but i think would even out the memory/storage limiation.
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Old 24 May 2018, 16:17   #45
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I already have experience handling competitions like that in the Amstrad CPC world and i would be happy of hosting this one.
meckert has run numerous competions and I also contributed funds towards this:

... 3rd RetroKomp GameDev Compo announcement
... RetroKomp/LoadError Game Development Competition
... RetroKomp/LoadError Party 2017 Announcement
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Old 24 May 2018, 16:32   #46
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Originally Posted by SyX View Post
Even if that was the usual Amiga configuration during the golden days (+ a second floppy drive), i am going to agreed with donnie about "limitations are good and a driver for innovation".

Because that i think that it would be better to have more strict limits for the first competition:
  • OCS
  • 512 KB Chip
  • One executable (sure, you can use compression)
I know that everybody loves a trackloader, but this is a game competition, not a trackloader one.

And this RAM limit will help to: think in the gameplay; less "artist oriented" people to have a chance; the chance of more games get finished.
And what kind of newcomer would be able to participate in that, or rather, how little entries do you want in it?

I think a game competition is usually, especially in the context of this thread, trying to tempt new people into getting on a platform, and such limits would only allow those really skilled with assembler to enter, as I am sure an AMOS or Blitz made game would have a hard time fitting those specs, if at all.

Also OCS? Come on, almost everyone has an ECS Agnus machine.

I'm just saying, limits are ok, but they don't have to be TOO stringent because then you limit participation too.

For example, if you make a compo, your only limit should be: "must run on stock A500/600/1200/CD32 hardware".
That gives you the option of targeting four different platforms with very specific hardware limitations, but that can allow newcomers more flexibility.
If you are hard core you can go for the more limited option, but if you are fresher, A1200 would give you more room to play with.
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Old 24 May 2018, 16:37   #47
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I am all for the 512K chip+512K chip/slow/fast config for OCS here.
Other than that no additional bells and whistles.

While it's true that limitations drive innovation, this is basically the standard Amiga config these days, and only 512k for everything is a tad low.
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Old 24 May 2018, 18:20   #48
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Originally Posted by Akira View Post
Yeah.
You don't want to up the quantity without also upping the quality, and the ratio right now isn't great (but maybe changing?).
You've got to start somewhere though. Demanding slick production on a first attempt will only put people off.

Maybe for an elite coder who can recite blitter registers from memory in hex, or one who is not a programmer at all, it's a fair assessment, but for those of us trying to learn how to create games it helps to have encouragement for whatever we can manage. The next one is likely to be better.

Perhaps a "beginners" category could help boost the efforts of those willing but not necessarily yet so able.
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Old 24 May 2018, 18:24   #49
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Originally Posted by E-Penguin View Post
You've got to start somewhere though. Demanding slick production on a first attempt will only put people off.
What I said does not imply I demand "slick production", read again what has been written.
All I said is that if you're just starting and you have a simple game, don't make it so shit that it requires a 100Mhz 68060 to run. This mainly happens because people get into shitty tools like Backbone to make "games" that are barely passable but not because of their design choices, rather by limitations of the platform they chose to "develop" in.

If you make a pong clone and it requires an A1200, you're doing it wrong. Learning how to optimize code is PART of how to learn to program for these old computers,s so it must be encouraged.

Basically ban Backbone and the like :P
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Old 24 May 2018, 18:27   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steril707 View Post
I am all for the 512K chip+512K chip/slow/fast config for OCS here.
Other than that no additional bells and whistles.

While it's true that limitations drive innovation, this is basically the standard Amiga config these days, and only 512k for everything is a tad low.
I agree with Steril707 for the OCS category. AmosPro has a runtime library that's over 100kB and 512kB systems are unsupported by it for that reason.
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Old 24 May 2018, 19:16   #51
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Well, Akira, maybe my limits idea were too limited, but i am thinking in games that are possible to make in a few weeks and then polish them until the deadline. I sincerely think, that if you give too much resources to a newbie, he will hang himself.

Of course, we will not see a new Lionheart, but that is not the goal and it should not be the goal in a first competition.

For example, i would love to see more early arcades or something in the line of those old bignonia c64 conversions. If you look the Amiga catalogue until 1988, there is not too much great early games, and this could bring a few nice small games.

Before to learn assembly in my first A500, I made a few small games in Amos that run in a basic A500 configuration, and i don't remember to be too limited... but sure, maybe i should make an skeleton + a document explaining how to build low resources games for helping to the people working in C entries, and people expert in Amos and Blitz could do something similar for those languages too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira View Post
Also OCS? Come on, almost everyone has an ECS Agnus machine.
Maybe, but which special feature does ECS bring over OCS? Large blits and border sprites? Well, i doubt that it is a requirement for a game, i prefer a game that works in every Amiga computer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira View Post
For example, if you make a compo, your only limit should be: "must run on stock A500/600/1200/CD32 hardware".
I think that those are too much categories for a compo works... and at the end how can you compare a game running from a floppy in an A500 512 KB Chip with a CD32 cdrom game?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira View Post
That gives you the option of targeting four different platforms with very specific hardware limitations, but that can allow newcomers more flexibility.
If you are hard core you can go for the more limited option, but if you are fresher, A1200 would give you more room to play with.
Then maybe we should create two categories, one "NO LIMITS" for beginners and other for the hardcore guys.
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Old 24 May 2018, 22:01   #52
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I agree with Steril707 for the OCS category. AmosPro has a runtime library that's over 100kB and 512kB systems are unsupported by it for that reason.
Really? How did I manage to use AmosPro for many years on my A1000 then?
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Old 24 May 2018, 22:29   #53
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Really? How did I manage to use AmosPro for many years on my A1000 then?
It depends on what your definition of use is though.
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Old 25 May 2018, 00:32   #54
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THis is a game I made last year (Akira provided music )

[ Show youtube player ]

It's not a "slick production", someone may say it's not even a good game and I'm ok with it.

But it's a simple game, I made it in 3-4 weeks, and in the process I was learning about coding for the machine. My goal was to *finish* something that would work on ECS + 512kb. I really think it was *way* better to take my time, code something properly that works on a classic machine than using something like backbone.

After that I've made another Amiga game (also very quickly and very simple), and have another one 90% finished (had to stop working on it because of current job, I'll be back to it and finish it around September). All the games work on 68000 ECS systems and 512kb or 1mb Ram.

None of them are "slick productions", they are simple games coming from a newbie learning the ins-and-outs of the machine. But every new one I make make me more confident and comfortable to try something more advanced the next time (and I keep learning new tricks to optmize code, etc)


I really wouldn't mind to see more simple arcade games being released on Amiga *if* they work on 68000.


In a side note, I would love to try to do an AGA 020 game someday, but without owning an AGA machine it's not fun
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Old 25 May 2018, 01:23   #55
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What I said does not imply I demand "slick production", read again what has been written.
Well it does; you said that the quantity should only be increased if the quality is. Which is exactly saying that only ever-better games should be developed. I will accept that might not be what you meant but it is what you said.

Quote:
If you make a pong clone and it requires an A1200, you're doing it wrong.
No, no, fundamentally no. If you make a working Pong clone then you're doing it right. The next step is to do it better but one cannot start out with 'better' as a first step. Incidentally a true pong clone would probably take at least an A1200 to properly emulate the bunch of discrete TTL chips it was originally built from.

Quote:
Learning how to optimize code is PART of how to learn to program for these old computers,s so it must be encouraged.
Premature optimisation is the root of all evil -- Donald Knuth

Quote:
Basically ban Backbone and the like :P
From a programming competition certainly, from a game creation competition not necessarily so. Its a tool to be used as any other. You might as well ban most paint programmes and demand all graphics be drawn with the original Deluxe Paint.

Good programming is in the understanding of algorithms, good game production is in the understanding of game play, sound and graphics. They're not necessarily the same thing.
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Old 25 May 2018, 12:11   #56
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Good programming is in the understanding of algorithms, good game production is in the understanding of game play, sound and graphics. They're not necessarily the same thing.
So true!
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Old 25 May 2018, 12:37   #57
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Good programming is in the understanding of algorithms, good game production is in the understanding of game play, sound and graphics. They're not necessarily the same thing.
A good game in my eyes is a game that you want to spend more time with. It can have crappy graphics and sound and still be great if the gameplay is spotless. Many people have probably spent countless hours with Zork despite it having no graphics or audio side at all. Most games cannot rely completely on the gameplay though, so that is when the graphics and audio come into play.
Most good modern games should cover all the bases and that means that you need many skills in the developer group to make it happen. A good programmer to program the algorithms to make sure all components of the game runs smoothly, computer players are not too stupid etc., a good graphic designer, an audio designer/musician and someone who can manage the entire game design to make sure it all goes well together.

Sometimes one person can cover all these grounds, but I think probably very few can manage that.
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Old 25 May 2018, 12:55   #58
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I think this thread in itself is a good example for why the 8bit scene is thriving and the Amiga scene is not. While people in the 8bit scene actually do something, people in the Amiga scene spend their time arguing on forums over what some damn minimum specs for games should be or begging for someone else to do games for them. Also, it doesn't help that a lot of people seem to have way too high expectations for anything made on the Amiga, and that's a surefire way to kill the motivation even of a seasoned developer.

Truth is, while making a small average game on an 8bit platform might be easier than on the Amiga (if you're a beginner), making a GOOD game is just as tough. You just have different obstacles to conquer depending on platform.
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Old 25 May 2018, 13:31   #59
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I think this thread in itself is a good example for why the 8bit scene is thriving and the Amiga scene is not. While people in the 8bit scene actually do something, people in the Amiga scene spend their time arguing on forums over what some damn minimum specs for games should be or begging for someone else to do games for them.



Yesterday I spent 10+ hours on a boss fight for "Heroes of Gorluth".
(sprite animation / tweaking health, attack patterns, weapons, platforms / music production ... ...)

But I guess some people will still talk about BB crap without delivering anything for the Amiga.
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Old 25 May 2018, 14:35   #60
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I think this thread in itself is a good example for why the 8bit scene is thriving and the Amiga scene is not. While people in the 8bit scene actually do something, people in the Amiga scene spend their time arguing on forums over what some damn minimum specs for games should be or begging for someone else to do games for them. Also, it doesn't help that a lot of people seem to have way too high expectations for anything made on the Amiga, and that's a surefire way to kill the motivation even of a seasoned developer.

Truth is, while making a small average game on an 8bit platform might be easier than on the Amiga (if you're a beginner), making a GOOD game is just as tough. You just have different obstacles to conquer depending on platform.

This... 1000 times this. To paraphrase pouet.net "make a game about it", don't just talk about all the things that are preventing you from doing so
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