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Old 11 January 2019, 18:22   #441
kolla
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Originally Posted by Daedalus View Post
Since it's such a massive deal for you
For me it is no big deal, as until this is fixed properly (a new shell-seg) I am simply not using v46 shell. It is a big deal for people who try to write scripts for the general audience though, they will have to check for version of shell, check whether correct version of setpatch has been run etc. It may end up being easier to just assume a broken shell and script accordingly.

I frankly find the idea of putting a shell filled with widely untested and experimental new features, into the kickstart of what is supposed to be "just an update" to OS3.1, rather... unwise. Of all things, that should be the kickstart module that users on their own perils could load with LoadModule. And this has nothing to do with Hyperion. What has to do with Hyperion is that any updates are now, until further notice, tied to them. And that just sucks.
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Old 11 January 2019, 19:23   #442
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Originally Posted by Thomas Richter View Post
I know that this post will trigger just another troll attack of Kolla. Ignore him. I just don't want to let things stand as incorrect as they are.

Thomas, please do not act in this way.
Accusing others of being just trolls, or asking to ignore other users is really not helpful and quite rude.
Kolla has made some valid points and in your posting you answered to them - so these points were obviously not just trolling.

Bugs and mistakes happen ... but as always: if you charge money for your product, customers can expect these bugs get fixed.

.... not sure about the "Pipe" thing yet ....
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Old 11 January 2019, 20:03   #443
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Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
Thomas, please do not act in this way.
Accusing others of being just trolls, or asking to ignore other users is really not helpful and quite rude.
Kolla has made some valid points and in your posting you answered to them - so these points were obviously not just trolling.
It takes one to know one. One troll just prefers the subtle/indirect approach and the other prefers the rude/direct approach but the end result is basically the same. This is a rare case of two trolls going at each other, which in this particular case could be considered "Poetic Justice".
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Old 11 January 2019, 20:49   #444
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It takes one to know one. One troll just prefers the subtle/indirect approach and the other prefers the rude/direct approach but the end result is basically the same. This is a rare case of two trolls going at each other, which in this particular case could be considered "Poetic Justice".
Well - Kolla was certainly very insisting and quite absolut or unforgiving about the things he criticized - but still it was a valid criticism. I do not see why this would qualify as "trolling".

Same goes for Thomas: while he was rude and arguing ad hominem in his last sentence, he is no troll.
But he was responding towards criticism in a rather unprofessional manner.
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Old 11 January 2019, 21:58   #445
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Well - Kolla was certainly very insisting and quite absolut or unforgiving about the things he criticized - but still it was a valid criticism. I do not see why this would qualify as "trolling".
Look, I can deal with people that have something to say because they already contributed - even if they are critical, because they have something to say and there is something important to learn from them.



Then one can argue on a technical level, and make yourself understood why certain decisions were taken in the way they were taken. I can also deal with people that take a neutral position and try to be fair, but know little. This is not a sales pitch as I have nothing to earn, and nothing to sell. This is not my property and my product, so I have nothing to loose either. Understanding a product from a "end user perspective" is also worthwhile information.



What I can not stand is people that just criticize without actually knowing the background, without having attempted something similar, and without even attempting to take a neutral position. If you just keep crying about all the features you do not like, just point out bugs, do not want to contribute, have insufficient background to understand the problems, then I call this trolling. Kolla has continued to show this attempt all over, in every possible way. Not only about my projects - also about other projects. I still remember his trolling on the vampire - which is another worthwhile project. Not everything is right there either, sure, but the way how he approached it was inadequate as well.


3.1.4 was two years of work. If the project was about one thing is that one can make a difference if one really really wants to. There is a difference between complaining, and actually doing. Once you have done, you can be harsh to me any time. But not before.
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Old 11 January 2019, 22:11   #446
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@Thomas Richer : A big thank you for the work done and to your dedication to the platform .
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Old 11 January 2019, 23:24   #447
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Originally Posted by Thomas Richter View Post
Then, a final point: I am even more tired about people like Kolla that complain whenever they can - people that contribute nothing, and are not willing to be helpful. Kolla complained about the Norsk localization - probably rightfully so, I cannot judge - but was not willing to provide fixes either.

Don't listen to such people. Everything will be cared for, sooner or later, but things will take a while. There are only few people that work on this, there is lots of work to do, sometime (...)

I know that this post will trigger just another troll attack of Kolla. Ignore him. I just don't want to let things stand as incorrect as they are.
In this day and age, avoid calling people "trolls". Kolla pointed out a technical problem in your code, but that is no reason to be defensive.

As a fellow software developer, if Kolla wrote the same thing to me, I would come home to my wife blushing and ashamed, and would have to explain to my wife why I was not feeling well. And as a fellow software developer, I do not put any blame on you, all I am trying to say is that I know how bad it feels to write incorrect software that ends up in the hands of users. And as a shell scripter, I also know how it must feel when "failat" doesn't behave as specified.

You could go into a defensive mode, explaining how Shell doesn't behave like Bash, but the fact is that the latest (relevant) release of Shell is 25 years old, and just like Bash must carry over 40 year old bugs because old shell scripts would break otherwise, Shell must do the same now — it may even have to be even more compatible — even when that doesn't make sense — because unlike Unix, AmigaOS has petrified in all those years and no new ROMs can change that fact.

As stated above, there is no need to get defensive — if anything, try to work with people like Kolla who are technically knowledgeable and find your bugs before you actually go as far as selling buggy software.
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Old 11 January 2019, 23:38   #448
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Originally Posted by idrougge View Post
As stated above, there is no need to get defensive — if anything, try to work with people like Kolla who are technically knowledgeable and find your bugs before you actually go as far as selling buggy software.
You don't know what you are talking about.

Kolla is making statements, many times they are not true, or they are misleading, and there is no way to answer to him. Kolla doesn't actually help, he is just criticising.

Last edited by utri007; 11 January 2019 at 23:46.
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Old 11 January 2019, 23:53   #449
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Look, I can deal with people that have something to say because they already contributed - even if they are critical, because they have something to say and there is something important to learn from them.
Kolla has contributed many good thoughts and e.g. script-examples here on EAB over many years.

Did he contribute to Hyperion's OS development? Why should he (or anyone) contribute without proper compensation to a commercial product? (Even if the legal status was not questioned, as it now actually is)

You and other contributors to 3.1.4 seem to think differently, as you decided to work for free and therefore let someone else take monetary advantage of your work and dedication ... a very odd decision in my account.

But to now only taking criticism seriously from people that are willing to make the same strange decision as yourself is not logical thinking.

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Then one can argue on a technical level, and make yourself understood why certain decisions were taken in the way they were taken.
So you did in your other post until the last sentence.
Still some of your arguments are not utterly compelling:
While I do understand the will to improve things, a new "classic" Kickstart version should keep compatibility - or at least this should be the highest priority for something called 3.1.4 after more than 20 years of freeze.

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I can also deal with people that take a neutral position and try to be fair, but know little. This is not a sales pitch as I have nothing to earn, and nothing to sell.
Well - others are selling your work. For money. No free download. No source code.

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This is not my property and my product, so I have nothing to loose either.
As you are part of the team that literally "produced" this version, it is your product.

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Understanding a product from a "end user perspective" is also worthwhile information.
Of course, it is even the only perspective that matters, since that is who the product is for, isn't it?

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What I can not stand is people that just criticize without actually knowing the background, without having attempted something similar, and without even attempting to take a neutral position.
Here I have to disagree:
The background is maybe interesting from a technical point of view, but in the end it is also totally irrelevant.
It is only the result that matters here.
And if the result is not behaving like it should, it can be criticized.

Quote:
If you just keep crying about all the features you do not like, just point out bugs, do not want to contribute,
a) bug reports are widely considered as contributions
b) again: this is not a open source community project
c) every customer is "contributing" via the payment and entitled to a working product.

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have insufficient background to understand the problems, then I call this trolling.
again: since we are not allowed to fix the source ourselves, but buying a compiled "as is" version of a product, only the end result matters.

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Kolla has continued to show this attempt all over, in every possible way. Not only about my projects - also about other projects.
What attempt would that be? Demanding better products is hardly trolling.

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I still remember his trolling on the vampire - which is another worthwhile project.
Trolling or rightfully criticizing?
I consider the Vampire project as very worthwhile and promising, but also very problematic.
Overall the Apollo/Vampire is a good example where even harsh criticism proved to be very fruitful in the end (see FPU discussions).

Quote:
Not everything is right there either, sure, but the way how he approached it was inadequate as well.
inadequate maybe - but this does not qualify as trolling.

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3.1.4 was two years of work. If the project was about one thing is that one can make a difference if one really really wants to. There is a difference between complaining, and actually doing. Once you have done, you can be harsh to me any time. But not before.
No. That simply does not apply to a commercial product.
That would mean a BMW customer is not allowed to complain about a faulty car, because he did not help assembling it!
Or I can't complain about an oversalted soup in a restaurant, because I was not helping in the kitchen?!

Last edited by Gorf; 12 January 2019 at 12:15.
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Old 12 January 2019, 04:52   #450
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You are being a little bit naive at best to believe in kolla´s good will. He has turned himself into a troll/keyboard warrior since about two/three years ago. Dont know what happened in his personal life that drove him in this bitterness path he chose. He wasnt like that before.

He has gotten several bans/admin warnings for his behaviour in several forums. And I am not talking about anything particular to Thomas Richter/Hyperion/3.1.4 but on many other subjects as well.

BTW, the Shell issue mentioned has been answered about two months ago.
(http://forum.hyperion-entertainment....hp?f=15&t=4156)

Yet he has continually repeated the same old story whatever forum he visits.
It is not about being helpfull for him, it is about trying to inflict some sort of psychological harm to someone. It is rather sad that he dives into this route.

For nearly everyone AmigaOS is just a hobby that we attempt to enjoy.

Even for both parties in litigation: I happened to exchange some emails with those involved in this quarrel, and I can say that despite what you may personally believe, both Cloanto and Hyperion have very good people that truly cherish the Amiga in a so passionate way that they are willing to go to court for merely stating their point (not that I like that, but that shows they both do care).

Believe it or not there is not a ton of gold to be made out of the Amiga market in its current shape. Just pocket change. There are few active users left, even less developers, and as time goes by we are less and the numbers keep diminishing.

So either we all help in pushing things forward in a positive manner for our hobby in whatever flavour we enjoy it (AROS, 68k/Classic, OS4, MOS, etc.), or we will witness the sad end many retro platforms have come to.

I found out sometimes a simple email saying thank you, a possitive post replying to someone that has created a new piece of hardware/software, a helping hand for solving an issue, does much more than whining all day long because you dont get the things you want in the way you want them.

There is a thin line between complaining and becoming a grumpy old man.
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Old 12 January 2019, 05:27   #451
Gorf
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He has turned himself into a troll/keyboard warrior since about two/three years ago.
That is not my impression, but whatever: it does not matter here at all, since he made some valid points.

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Dont know what happened in his personal life
And that in not our business, is it? It is not important where the message came from, but what the message contains.

So we should really stop shooting the messenger - no matter if you don't like him or whatever your remote psychoanalysis reveals...
These are all just ad hominem arguments and therefore irrelevant.

Quote:
both Cloanto and Hyperion have very good people that truly cherish the Amiga in a so passionate way that they are willing to go to court for merely stating their point
If they would care, they would finally work together and release OS3.x for free under an open source license.

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Believe it or not there is not a ton of gold to be made out of the Amiga market in its current shape.
obviously still enough to go to court.

Actually it is the only business Cloanto has - and they did make quite some money over the years, with only one single little trick - they got very very lucky in the past, by acquiring the rights for distributing the OS, when no one really cared ... and having really a great open source emulator from someone else around ... what did they actually ever give back to the community???

And Hyperion .... don't let me get started ...
Well - the PPC-OS4 user base is close to non existent, and Hyperion saw a nice opportunity to get at least some money from classic users ... it seems more like a very desperate act, than a beneficiary one.
As Cloanto their business model seems to include free development from generous programmers like you ... without any own contribution except from claiming to have some copyrights....

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or we will witness the sad end many retro platforms have come to.
Actually we can envy the guys at C64, Atari and now especially RiscOS ...
https://www.riscosopen.org/content/

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I found out sometimes a simple email saying thank you, a possitive post replying to someone that has created a new piece of hardware/software
So I should thank Apple every time they release a new phone?
Or Microsoft, when they release a new Windows?

I am always grateful for actual help and of course for gifts and presents and so on ... but why should I be grateful if someone offers me a product to buy?

Are you grateful every day you find a new product in your supermarket???
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Old 12 January 2019, 05:37   #452
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Are you grateful every day you find a new product in your supermarket???
Yes, because I would certainly miserably fail in doing my daily activities if I had to grow my own crops, properly take care of them, and harvest them.

I also apreciate and am grateful that there are some people that sell Amiga software and hardware, because they let me enjoy my hobby in a better way.

But then if you are not grateful about this things, it is okay, it is your choice to feel that way.
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Old 12 January 2019, 05:50   #453
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Yes, because I would certainly miserably fail in doing my daily activities if I had to grow my own crops, properly take care of them, and harvest them.
If you would grow your own crops, then that would be (part of) your daily activities!

But instead you do something else - as a result of that activity you earn some "extra points" and you can exchange these "extra points" for food, grown by a farmer, who needs these points to buy a car....

So there is certainly no need to be utterly grateful that people sell stuff to each other...

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I also apreciate and am grateful that there are some people that sell Amiga software and hardware, because they let me enjoy my hobby in a better way.
That is why you pay with your hard earned money for these things... you have to work for them!

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But then if you are not grateful about this things, it is okay, it is your choice to feel that way.
I am not very grateful, for things I have to work for ... I may be glad they exist and that I earn enough money so I can afford them ... but "grateful" would be just the wrong term.

Last edited by Gorf; 12 January 2019 at 06:39.
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Old 12 January 2019, 12:10   #454
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You do not want me, I'm in favor of Gorf and Kolla, if something does not work why not say it (at my request nobody gave a precise answer) woe if there were no criticism in my opinion always constructive even if they are exaggerated.

We are in 2019 .... we can still market an AMiGA OS that only serves to have fun or retrace the past times? OS Amiga is now too far behind and can not compete with anyone and its marketing will lead to the fragment of users and its final death.

In my opinion, the free distribution would allow "everyone" to test and better and maybe to make it grow so much that it could be worthy of this name as it was in the past.

Last edited by AMIGASYSTEM; 12 January 2019 at 12:36.
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Old 12 January 2019, 13:10   #455
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Kolla already ruined a interesting thread on amiga.org with his constant whining.
http://forum.amiga.org/index.php?topic=73694.0

It's good that he finds bugs, but keep whining about them won't magically fix them.
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Old 12 January 2019, 13:39   #456
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Kolla already ruined a interesting thread on amiga.org with his constant whining.
http://forum.amiga.org/index.php?topic=73694.0

It's good that he finds bugs, but keep whining about them won't magically fix them.
But what else can we do? Since it is still not open source, we can not go and fix it ourselves.
It is a commercial product - and while it is actually just a update with some bug-fixes, some improvements and some new bugs, and everyone has already payed for the original version of the OS, it does come with a price tag, so any customer can clearly expect a functioning product.
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Old 12 January 2019, 14:10   #457
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@Gorf: all I have ever read from Kolla is negative and shitting on other people work.
Really wonder why you feel you need to defend him.
When he started that shit on german A1K forum they fortunately immediately told him to shut up or leave.
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Old 12 January 2019, 14:48   #458
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But what else can we do? Since it is still not open source, we can not go and fix it ourselves.
It is a commercial product - and while it is actually just a update with some bug-fixes, some improvements and some new bugs, and everyone has already payed for the original version of the OS, it does come with a price tag, so any customer can clearly expect a functioning product.
Maybe there is some workaround, if not all we can do is wait.
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Old 12 January 2019, 14:57   #459
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@Gorf: all I have ever read from Kolla is negative and shitting on other people work.
Really wonder why you feel you need to defend him.
When he started that shit on german A1K forum they fortunately immediately told him to shut up or leave.
Maybe because all I can read here is very strong negativity towards Kolla:

Some even try to bring his personal life into this... you and others keep on mentioning other forums or complete different subjects or in combination:
his alleged bad behavior in other forums at completely different subject...

All things that should not be mentioned in a good discussion.

What I can not read are non-arrogant answers to his questions, solutions to avoid those bugs in future - some acknowledgement that ROM modules where indeed shipped too early and so on.
(Do customers get a fixed ROM module for free now as it should be?)

Instead of apologizing for mistakes some developers seem to think everyone should be utterly grateful for having the opportunity to buy something...

Last edited by Gorf; 12 January 2019 at 15:07.
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Old 12 January 2019, 15:10   #460
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Originally Posted by Steril707 View Post
@Gorf: all I have ever read from Kolla is negative and shitting on other people work.
Really wonder why you feel you need to defend him.
When he started that shit on german A1K forum they fortunately immediately told him to shut up or leave.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
you and others keep on mentioning other forums or complete different subjects or in combination:
his alleged bad behavior in other forums at completely different subject...
I didn't really want to get into this discussion but I should mention that kolla has also been temporarily banned from EAB in the past for constantly slagging off other projects in a non-constructive way e.g. numerous Vampire threads and various others...
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