Dave Haynie A3000+

[kovacm]

Originally Posted by nobody

PS. About the Lynx, Epyx sold it to Atari after RJ Mical, Dave Morse and Dave Needle had created it. Even though beeing the first color handheld and quite good design it was a massive failure in Tramiel's hands, as all companies that had signed with Epyx to supply parts at low price and support the system fled when Tramiel took control.

They had previous experience with Tramiel and his Atari and had got burned badly.

What previous experience?

[idrougge]

Presumably the same experience RJ Mical, Dave Morse and Dave Needle had had at Epyx; Tramiel placing large orders, forcing the supplier to make large investments to meet those orders, then delaying payment until the supplier was in such a bad financial situation that he could buy them out.

Tramiel had also alienated retailers through sudden price dumps, putting them in an uncomfortable situation with lots of dead stock to be sold at a loss.

[kovacm]

Originally Posted by idrougge

Presumably the same experience RJ Mical, Dave Morse and Dave Needle had had at Epyx; Tramiel placing large orders, forcing the supplier to make large investments to meet those orders, then delaying payment until the supplier was in such a bad financial situation that he could buy them out.

Do you have any links/proofs testifies for this urban legend?

Originally Posted by idrougge

Tramiel had also alienated retailers through sudden price dumps, putting them in an uncomfortable situation with lots of dead stock to be sold at a loss.

True since he saw dealers as unnecessary 'part of a chain' in distribution computers to people / masses.
There is no reasons for special retailers 'since computers are easy', 'anyone can use computer' - e.g. Amiga is not another PC-compatibile so you do NOT need 300 pages manual to use it (and ST is even more friendly-user computer, even more than Mac! ).

[idrougge]

Originally Posted by kovacm

Do you have any links/proofs testifies for this urban legend?

Yes, it is stated as much in Brian Bagnall's original book about Commodore.

Originally Posted by kovacm

True since he saw dealers as unnecessary 'part of a chain' in distribution computers to people / masses.
There is no reasons for special retailers 'since computers are easy', 'anyone can use computer' - e.g. Amiga is not another PC-compatibile so you do NOT need 300 pages manual to use it (and ST is even more friendly-user computer, even more than Mac! ).

Spoken like a true delusional.

[kovacm]

Originally Posted by idrougge

Yes, it is stated as much in Brian Bagnall's original book about Commodore.

please name of few or point me to page in book.

Originally Posted by idrougge

Spoken like a true delusional.

maybe you need manual to use Amiga (use it for something that are not games ) but ST was as simple as computer can be.

[idrougge]

Originally Posted by kovacm

please name of few or point me to page in book.

Sorry, that book is on a semi-permanent visit to a friend.

Originally Posted by kovacm

maybe you need manual to use Amiga (use it for something that are not games ) but ST was as simple as computer can be.

You don't have to be as delusional as Tramiel. He alienated his retailers and was hence forced to buy a retail chain of his own, which dragged Atari Corporation down.

[kovacm]

Originally Posted by idrougge

You don't have to be as delusional as Tramiel. He alienated his retailers and was hence forced to buy a retail chain of his own, which dragged Atari Corporation down.

There is nothing delusional: he do same with Commodore 64 and it was right thing to do as you can see by Commodore growth in profit.
That was simply his business strategy which he, btw, repeat publicly in every interview: "I believe that my customer is smart enough and that he will buy computer in any store for best price"!

Yes, Federated Trade stores suck almost 100$ from Atari Corporation and was one of main reason for Atari (premature?) dismiss.

---
When you get book back, please find me that claims. I never read Brian Bagnall's since Jack Tramiel did not give interview for him but eventually I will.

[idrougge]

Originally Posted by kovacm

There is nothing delusional: he do same with Commodore 64 and it was right thing to do as you can see by Commodore growth in profit.
That was simply his business strategy which he, btw, repeat publicly in every interview: "I believe that my customer is smart enough and that he will buy computer in any store for best price"!

It's an absolutely stupid strategy, so stupid that it can't even be called a strategy. It's plain stupidity.

If you stop paying your rent, you will se a big rise in income in your household. Until you find yourself on the street with nowhere to go.

Burning bridges with retailers for short-term profits is extremely shortsighted, even for a market leader.

[kovacm]

Originally Posted by nobody

And you gave us just a video of his son saying that "he left because Gould was using Commodore's jet". And then you call this a proof.
From what i know there was a power struggle between the board of directors (whose chairman was Irvine Gould) and Tramiel and why? Because Tramiel was selling too cheap just to drive all competition out of the market, not making enough profit, taking advantage of Commodore's MOS department.
Trying to post Tramiel in a negative light? Better listen to this video at 5:00 and 10:10
[ Show youtube player ]

Carl Sassenrath talks how Jack Tramiel was angry like snake when he left Commodore?!? ...and he continue: "I put picture of Jack Tramiel at my office door - to remind me: do not forget, never forget who this is" - WTF he is talking about!!!!???

Carl Sassenrath, work for Amiga and come to Commodore few MONTHS AFTER Jack Tramiel left Commodore. He NEVER had anything with Jack!

So WHY he spread lies and attacks Jack Tramiel when they never had contacts any contacts?!? None of them had any contact with Jack expect R J Mical and he had business with Jack when Epyx sold "his" (and Dave Needle) handle console to Atari Corporation! So I understand that R J Mical (and Dave Needle) are pissed on Jack and that they used every opportunity to spread LIES about Jack (which Amiga community accepted as truth and never questioned! - At beginning of video, at 1:00, R J Mical said: "If you do not have question, we can make stuff up" and he is doing EXACTLY that all the time!)


8:20 Dave Hayne "if Jack had bought Amiga, there is lot of chance that most of Amiga team would left" - before Commodore bought Amiga, in 1983. Dave Morse try to find investor for Amiga so he visited HP, Apple, SGI, Sony.... and Commodore (while Jack still was CEO) and Jack said that he is maybe interested in Amiga technology but not in Amiga Corporation so talks never go any further since Dave Morse searching to sell ENTIRE Amiga Corporation company at time!

and right after Dave Hayne says few positive things about Jack (which you also FAIL to notice!), than R J Mical immediately starts another STORY (that he made up like many others!) just to show how Jack (supposedly) was BAD person (and envied to Amiga - WTF?)!

R J Mical, please STOP making things up!

[nobody]

How can you tell rj mical is saying lies? You have any proof or just spreading sh1t around?

[Cv365]

Originally Posted by kovacm

R J Mical, please STOP making things up!

kovacm, please STOP making things up!

[kovacm]

Originally Posted by nobody

How can you tell rj mical is saying lies? You have any proof or just spreading sh1t around?

Of course I have proof.

Everything is very good documented in Marty Goldberg and Curt Vendel book "Atari Inc: Business is Fun" (read this section regarding Commodore / Atari Inc. / Amiga / Atari Corp. events in 1984!).

But lets start with R J Mical fairy tale story that he repeat zillion times:

1)
"Tramiel had recently left Commodore in a huff and bought Atari "undercover" so that by the time he left C= he was already CEO of Atari."

LIE. Jack Tramiel left Commodore in January 1984. link NYtimes
After he quit Commodore he had no plans to entering computer business.
He went on holiday, trip around the world, with his wife Helen, when Steven J. Ross of Warner Communications (owner of Atari Inc.) called him and urge him to cut the trip and come back in USA.
He bought Atari Inc. on 1. July 1984. (link NYtimes)
There is a gap of almost six months! Jack had no intention of entering computer business or getting revenge on Commodore. Atari Inc. was losing 1.000.000$ per day and Warner was in hurry to get rid of it and Jack accepted on terms that he will run Atari for two years, and then they will negotiate price of company.

2)
"Realising that Commodore was coming out with their own hot game machine, Tramiel figured he'd revenge himself on them for dumping him by buying Amiga Inc. and driving C= down the tubes with "his" superior product. "

No, like a explain above: Jack would not go back to business if Warner Communication would not insist on selling Atari Inc. to him.

Beside, deal between Atari Inc. and Amiga Corp. had nothing with Jack Tramiel! It was signed on 6. March 1984. (link to contract) and in contract you will see that Atari Inc. offer 3$ per share, not 1$ like R J Mical claim that Atari offer!

3)
"So Atari gave them half a million just for negotiating for a month; that money was gone in a day. Of course Tramiel saw that Amiga Inc. wasn't in a very good bargaining position"

Like we see, Jack Tramiel had nothing with Atari Inc. Amiga Corp. contract...

4)
"So he offered them 98 cents a share; Dave Morse held out for $2.00. But instead of bargaining in good faith, every time Morse and Amiga tried to meet them halfway their bid went down!"

bla, bla... just more lies and make up stories (see contract above).

R J Mical speak at the Boston Computer Society meeting in Cambridge


From R. J. Mical mouth: "if it comes down to which is more interesting, fact or story, I go with a story!" audio link (jump to 13min.) just listen to his own words.


end result of this R J Mical "stories" is seen in e.g. movie VivaAmiga where they put Jack picture while they are talking about Atari Inc. - Amiga Corp. deal! They even make fake newspaper about Atari Inc. Amiga deal in movie!!! This thing simple go to far! (not to mention Kim Justice videos full of blatantly lies about Jack Tramiel...)




and end result of R J Mical and Dave Needle hatred toward Jack is also this discussion that we have. But it is ok, there some of us that are determine to show the truth and set story right.

[nobody]

You are based so much on speculation and false facts. Tramiel established "Tramel technology" corporation directly after leaving Commodore, that was renamed to Atari. Then you say he wasn't going on business again.
Then he bought a whole computer company!!? (for free)

[roondar]

One problem with this whole Jack Tramiel discussion is the lack of sources and facts quoted here. So here's some stuff from Wikipedia (the Wikipedia page lists sources for each of those claims, if you want to check those be my guest - I see little reason to doubt the statements as is, they echo what I heard in magazines and news back in the day)

Note especially that some of the stuff mentioned here is from pre-Amiga Inc's existence and definitely not stated by (ex) Commodore employees.

So, some good first:

During a question and answer session at CommVEx v11 (July 18, 2015), Leonard Tramiel finally revealed to the crowd, what really transpired between Jack and Irving Gould during the 1984 C.E.S. show resulting in Tramiel leaving Commodore.[22]

On the 13th January 1984 during a meeting with Irving, Jack told Irving that treating the assets of the company as his own and using them for personal use was wrong. He said to Irving, "you can't do that while I'm still president" to which Irving responded by saying "Goodbye". Three days after the show, Jack announced to the public that he was resigning from the company. [23]

This is proper leadership, it is very much wrong to use company assets as if they are your personal assets. It is in fact illegal in many countries to do so.

Tramiel was a co-founder of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, which was opened in 1993. He was among many other survivors of the Ahlem labor camp who tracked down U.S. Army veteran Vernon Tott, who was among the 84th Division which rescued survivors from the camp and had taken and stored photographs of at least 16 of the survivors. Tott, who died of cancer in 2003, was personally commemorated by Tramiel with an inscription on one of the Holocaust Museum's walls saying "To Vernon W. Tott, My Liberator and Hero".[33]

Preserving history and honoring those who fought for your freedom is hardly a sign of being a bad person.

Some bad:

Gould had controlled the company since 1966. He and Tramiel often argued, but Gould usually let Tramiel run Commodore by himself. Tramiel was a micromanager who did not believe in budgets; he wanted to approve every expense greater than $1,000, which meant that operations stopped when Tramiel went on vacation

This is just a bad idea for a bigger company. Period.
It also shows off the person in question just wants too much control.

Adam Osborne wrote in 1981:[18]

The microcomputer industry abounds with horror stories describing the way Commodore treats its dealers and its customers. However, Jack Tramiel has built a large and profitable organization by offering a capable product. Tramiel definitely plays hardball, but he deserves credit for what he has been able to accomplish.

Outside 'proof' that Jack was not acting so nicely to those he dealt with.
Also note that this is from 1981, before any Amiga dealings so it was already known back then that he was not so nice.

Despite successfully shipping the ST, Tramiel's poor personal reputation hurt Atari. One retailer said in 1985 about the ST that because of its prior experience with Tramiel "Our interest in Atari is zero, zilch".[28] A software company executive said "Dealing with Commodore was like dealing with Attila the Hun. I don't know if Tramiel will be following his old habits ... I don't see a lot of people rushing to get software on the machine."[29] (One ex-Commodore employee said that to Tramiel "software wasn't tangible—you couldn't hold it, feel it, or touch it—so it wasn't worth spending money for".[30]) Steve Arnold of LucasArts said after meeting with Tramiel that he reminded him of Jabba the Hutt, while within Atari Darth Vader was often the comparison.[31] Another executive was more positive, stating "Jack Tramiel is a winner. I wouldn't bet against him."[32]

So his reputation with dealers was so poor, some refused to stock stuff he made. On top of that he was compared to the oh-so-nice Darth Vader by his own staff.



So no, the man was not a nice guy in business.
And as far as I can see, he did deal with his suppliers and his retail contacts poorly, if not outright hostile.

A store doesn't stop stocking successful products unless they really, really don't like the way they're being treated. Otherwise, money is money and they'd just sell on. Really, stores refusing to carry Atari ST's because of Tramiel tells you enough right there.

Note that this is just from one source (Wikipedia's Tramiel article), I'm sure that with more than five minutes of googling much more of the same can be found. Now, I couldn't find the newspaper clipping I remembered of a Tramiel interview in which he as much said he wanted to destroy Commodore by buying Atari, but I'm pretty sure that also exists.

[kovacm]

Originally Posted by nobody

You are based so much on speculation and false facts. Tramiel established "Tramel technology" corporation directly after leaving Commodore, that was renamed to Atari.

I am certainly not the one that base something on speculation. You have links for everything.

TTL ( Tramel Technology, Ltd. ) was founded on May 17.:
44 days before Atari Inc. take over was finalized or 4 MONTHS AFTER leaving Commodore

Do the math! and do NOT speculate and bring false facts!

here you have complete and detailed history of TTL/Atari Corp.: http://mcurrent.name/atarihistory/tr...echnology.html

Originally Posted by nobody

Then you say he wasn't going on business again.
Then he bought a whole computer company!!? (for free)

Yes. That is exactly what I am saying.

There is reason for this.

Tramiel took a trip around world with his wife Helen after he left Commodore (even Irving Gould said that he is tired: "Jack has been working unceasingly here, and he was just tired,'' [url=http://www.nytimes.com/1984/01/16/business/commodore-executive-rift-denied.html]link[/link]). Unfortunate, I can not find exact article about this trip right now, but Jimmy Maher also wrote about his trip around world: http://www.filfre.net/2015/04/the-68000-wars-part-2-jack-is-back/

Why Jack Tramiel change his mind and return in business?

Because he got Atari practically for nothing (you can find exactly terms of deal on internet)!

Steve Ross urge Jack cut the trip as Warner was in hurry to get rid of Atari since they lose 450$ million in last quarter (you have data in link at NYtimes that I left in previous post)! As soon as he got offer from Steve Ross, he began plans for future (which include planing of RBP: "Rock Bottom Price" computer aka ST).

[kovacm]

Originally Posted by roondar

One problem with this whole Jack Tramiel discussion is the lack of sources and facts quoted here. So here's some stuff from Wikipedia (the Wikipedia page lists sources for each of those claims, if you want to check those be my guest - I see little reason to doubt the statements as is, they echo what I heard in magazines and news back in the day)

Pages about Amiga/Atari/Jack are full of false claims and are complete mess on this topic!

Until recently, before I change it, Amiga article stated that Jack Tramiel sign deal with Amiga Corp. and HE lend 500.000$ to Amiga !!!!!!! anyway, there is a lot of work to set fact right since R J Mical story is widely accepted as "true" story although come from man that say: "If I have to choose between the truth and telling a good story - I prefer to tell a good story"

I spent quite some time on topic, but real and complete story have Marty Goldberg and Curt Vendel since they collect every possible paper from Atari Inc./Atari Corp and wrote a book based on hard evidence.
On "talk page" at wikipedia you have Marty G. explained what happened with Amiga/Atari deal. Also I urge you to read part of book his that I left in previous post.

Originally Posted by roondar

So his reputation with dealers was so poor, some refused to stock stuff he made. On top of that he was compared to the oh-so-nice Darth Vader by his own staff.

You should read complete article from author od "Darth Vader" prank Landon Dyer: http://www.dadhacker.com/blog/?p=1000

Jack Tramiel called a meeting. We didn’t often meet with him, and it was a big deal. He started by saying, “I hear you are unhappy.” Think of a deep, authoritarian voice, a lot like Darth Vader, and the same attitude, pretty much.
Sorry, Jack, things aren’t going all that hot. We tried to look humble, but we probably just came across as tired.
“I don’t understand why you are unhappy,” he rumbled. “You should be very happy; I am paying your salary. I am the one who is unhappy. The software is late. Why is it so late?”

Young and idealistic, I piped up: “You know, I don’t think we’re in this for the money. I think we just want to ship the best computer we can –”

Jack shut me down. “Then you won’t mind if I cut your salary in half?”

I got the message. He didn’t even have to use the Force.

Yes, totally opposite from Amiga team stories full of love and happiness but from this you can see that Jack far fair and realistic.
btw Landon never before met Jack before he made a "Darth Vader" prank.


Other notes:
---
Yes, Jack did want to skip "expensive" specialized stores and want to lower the end price of computer as much as possible so he can sell as much as possible computers - "for the classes, not for the masses!" so yes, at the end specialized computer stores had to compete with mass merchandise stores so it is natural that they get pissed of on Jack.


---
Jack respect his employees and share with them. How would you explain that half of Commodore employees WILLINGLY follow him to TTL and later Atari Corp. if he was such bad boss??? He like to mention that he made more millionaires than any other company in 80s.

[nobody]

Jack send home directly after taking Atari:
900 of 1100 existing roster of workers at Atari
300 workers at manufacturing facility
200 in marketing

I guess they didn't have the luck to love Tramiel too

[roondar]

Originally Posted by kovacm

Pages about Amiga/Atari/Jack are full of false claims and are complete mess on this topic!

Until recently, before I change it, Amiga article stated that Jack Tramiel sign deal with Amiga Corp. and HE lend 500.000$ to Amiga !!!!!!! anyway, there is a lot of work to set fact right since R J Mical story is widely accepted as "true" story although come from man that say: "If I have to choose between the truth and telling a good story - I prefer to tell a good story"

I spent quite some time on topic, but real and complete story have Marty Goldberg and Curt Vendel since they collect every possible paper from Atari Inc./Atari Corp and wrote a book based on hard evidence.
On "talk page" at wikipedia you have Marty G. explained what happened with Amiga/Atari deal. Also I urge you to read part of book his that I left in previous post.




You should read complete article from author od "Darth Vader" prank Landon Dyer: http://www.dadhacker.com/blog/?p=1000

Jack Tramiel called a meeting. We didn’t often meet with him, and it was a big deal. He started by saying, “I hear you are unhappy.” Think of a deep, authoritarian voice, a lot like Darth Vader, and the same attitude, pretty much.
Sorry, Jack, things aren’t going all that hot. We tried to look humble, but we probably just came across as tired.
“I don’t understand why you are unhappy,” he rumbled. “You should be very happy; I am paying your salary. I am the one who is unhappy. The software is late. Why is it so late?”

Young and idealistic, I piped up: “You know, I don’t think we’re in this for the money. I think we just want to ship the best computer we can –”

Jack shut me down. “Then you won’t mind if I cut your salary in half?”

I got the message. He didn’t even have to use the Force.

Yes, totally opposite from Amiga team stories full of love and happiness but from this you can see that Jack far fair and realistic.
btw Landon never before met Jack before he made a "Darth Vader" prank.


Other notes:
---
Yes, Jack did want to skip "expensive" specialized stores and want to lower the end price of computer as much as possible so he can sell as much as possible computers - "for the classes, not for the masses!" so yes, at the end specialized computer stores had to compete with mass merchandise stores so it is natural that they get pissed of on Jack.


---
Jack respect his employees and share with them. How would you explain that half of Commodore employees WILLINGLY follow him to TTL and later Atari Corp. if he was such bad boss??? He like to mention that he made more millionaires than any other company in 80s.

I am not going to add a huge deal here, just one thing: the page I referred to has sources for all it's claims (like usual for Wikipedia) and these sources are not 'Amiga fan stuff'. The short version being that I really see little need to disbelieve those statements. Both the Wikipedia account and your quotes can be true.

A short note here on facts:
Claiming all evidence contrary to your position is to be mistrusted and all evidence that you bring to the table as trustworthy is a logical fallacy. Just because you feel your evidence is more valuable than the evidence the other side brings to the table doesn't actually make your evidence any more or less true.

It might be wise to remember that.

[kovacm]

Originally Posted by nobody

Jack send home directly after taking Atari:
900 of 1100 existing roster of workers at Atari
300 workers at manufacturing facility
200 in marketing

I guess they didn't have the luck to love Tramiel too

what da fuck you talking about ?!?

Atari Inc. was loosing 1.000.000$ per DAY. Jack come to try to fix the company.

Are you from capitalist society or communist? What part you do not understand?

[kovacm]

Originally Posted by roondar

A short note here on facts:
Claiming all evidence contrary to your position is to be mistrusted and all evidence that you bring to the table as trustworthy is a logical fallacy. Just because you feel your evidence is more valuable than the evidence the other side brings to the table doesn't actually make your evidence any more or less true.

What "trustworthy" evidence?

Atari Inc - Amiga Corp. copy of contract sign by Warner owned Atari Inc. vs R J Mical claims that it was Jack behind this deal and that Jack gave Amiga 500.000$ ???

Or what R J Mical said that Atari Inc offer Amiga 1$ per share, than 0.8$... when in contract is stated 3$ per share???

What more evidence do you want?

R J Mical is LIAR, like I stated before, and what he said for himself.
Problem is that people believe him and took his word for truth!