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Old 25 September 2018, 23:39   #101
Ian
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Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
You, on the other hand, don't explain or justify any of his valid points, but only argue "ad hominem".
That is not helpful at all.
I can only echo what Gorf says here, it's basic stuff.

If the critique is wrong address it in a professional manner.

If the critique is correct, respond accordingly, be it an explanation, a remedy or simply holding your hands up and apologising.

All of these things will be better than reporting the posts and trying to pretend there's nothing to answer.
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Old 25 September 2018, 23:54   #102
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I don't get what all this bashing has to do with the thread title?
Anyway, good to see there's still software development for these boards.
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Old 26 September 2018, 00:06   #103
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Originally Posted by seuden View Post
I don't get what all this bashing has to do with the thread title?
Absolutely nothing. It’s more disappointing that the moderation team won’t do anything to help the situation either, i’m quite disappointed frankly.

Again, get a separate thread created and get all this “conversation” moved into it, then allow this thread and others like it to stick to the topic at hand rather than rail-roading it into the private crusade of a handful of people.

Some of us would like to be able to discuss the topic at hand without having to wade through 5, 10, 15+ pages of the same old rehashed arguments time and time again.
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Old 26 September 2018, 00:11   #104
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@Mr.Flibble:

Would you like to add something on-topic than, to archive exactly what you wish for?
Have you tested the new core?
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Old 26 September 2018, 01:16   #105
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OK, I'm reading all this and just don't get it... Could someone post by points what are exact critiques about the card, what was exactly wrong with the cards that they bought, what was in the description of the cards when they were bought that was missing or was incorrect. Something like:
- at the time of buying the card was advertised to have feature X, but it didn't
- my card had defect Y and it wasn't resolved
etc...

Maybe then the people behind Vampire could answer to those critiques and maybe those problems can be resolved, benefiting all? This is going nowhere fast...

My main community is based around Commodore 64, and there I have never seen flame wars like this. Even between us and ZX Spectrum fans... I'm just happy that my Commodore 64s and Amigas and all other retro stuff that I collected is still working after almost 40 years, be it in original form or with the help of re-implemented SID and PLA chips, SD2IEC, SatanDisk and SIO2SD devices, Goteks, Pi1541 emulators, Vampires or anything in between that didn't exist in the 80s.

Disclaimer: I do not have a Vampire card, but I was using one for a month (borrowed from a friend) and had no problems with it, it was a pleasure to have it. Just my experience...
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Old 26 September 2018, 02:28   #106
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Dang, these Vampire threads are just so much fun to read!

I was so happy with the 2.x cores I wasn't going to worry about Gold 3 until later, but I think you've all convinced me to give it a try now...

Have a good week Amiga people!
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Old 26 September 2018, 03:40   #107
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Dang, these Vampire threads are just so much fun to read!

I was so happy with the 2.x cores I wasn't going to worry about Gold 3 until later, but I think you've all convinced me to give it a try now...

Have a good week Amiga people!
Yeah same!

I love my Vampire! Quick everyone, take a dump on me!!
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Old 26 September 2018, 04:31   #108
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I am sitting on the fence with getting a Vampire. I love the idea and the implementation, but I already use two Amiga's that are working just great - Where would I even put my A500 with a Vampire card? Hmmmm... Maybe there is room in the living room for it... Hmmmm...
I think the Vampire is genius. What a job it must be to keep that thing updated and stable! The team is doing a great job and deserves credit for it.
My personal opinion is that those who hate the Vampire should.... wait for it... not buy one. And stop ragging on the people loving it.
I for example have no use for a Gotek drive. I would literally never use it. But, guess what! If you love your Gotek, more power to you! Enjoy!
Same goes for the Vampire. If you love it, enjoy it. If you hate it, ignore it. Easy.
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Old 26 September 2018, 05:29   #109
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Oh dear, I keep an eye on updates to Vampire, and saw this thread and was excited to see what people had to say about the GOLD 3 Alpha core, hopefully some screen captures and video from people who own Vampires who have tried out the new alpha core.

Instead, after reading 6 pages here, I saw no video or screen captures, or even photographs, a little bit of information from a few people who tried it, and lots of arguing.

I don't own a Vampire. I'd love to, but I simply can't afford one. I don't think they're overpriced, quite the opposite, me not having one is more of a reflection on my dire financial situation than on the product.

But I can say that it was the Vampire that got me interested enough in the Amiga again to get my Amiga 600. It was the Vampire that renewed my interest in the Amiga platform enough to start my own web site dedicated to the Amiga platform, and to try to give credit to those who are airbrushed out of history because it wasn't IBM, Microsoft or Apple. Because of the Vampire, I have spend money on not just my Amiga 600, but also on getting it re-capped, RAM expansion for it, and various other hardware and software for it. Because of the Vampire, my children know what an Amiga is, and they're surprised to see that the Amiga 600 keyboard "is the whole computer", and were shocked to see that games on it were not slow, like they were expecting from a computer that is far older than they are.

I may never own a Vampire. But because of it existing, it renewed my interest in the platform, put money in the pockets of some people who still support the platform, and made me try to keep a historical record of the platform so it's not lost to time.

I admire and respect the work done by all those who have been involved with the Vampire project, and I know it may not be a product for everyone - just like the Amiga 500 and 3000 were not products for literally everyone - the 500 too limiting for some people, while the 3000 is massive overkill for someone who just wants to play superfrog. But both products made sense to particular market segments. The same for the Vampire, for some people, it's a fantastic advancement, for others, it's simply not for them. Neither is right or wrong in my humble opinion. If you like the Vampire, great, enjoy, if you don't, well don't get one. People trying to convince people to not get one just seems silly to me, to me it's like trying to convince everyone to go on the "no cake" diet because you don't eat cake.
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Old 26 September 2018, 06:05   #110
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To clarify a little, the goal of the standalone (V4) is not meant to be like any Amiga before, but the new Amiga with the 5th gen 68k CPU (AC68080).
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Old 26 September 2018, 06:41   #111
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The Vampire 2 in my A500 is the single most impressive piece of hardware I have ever purchased since owning Amigas since 1986. Even if it's not finished. And I've been using it in ECS mode for a few years now...

I don't understand the hate.
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Old 26 September 2018, 08:31   #112
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Anyone tried core 3? What's the PAMELA like?
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Old 26 September 2018, 09:55   #113
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Originally Posted by Lord Aga View Post
But you, being German, can check out the A1K forum. Check out the Vampire threads and you will see that they are way more civil. You will also see the reason WHY those threads are way more civil and productive.
A1K-mods don't allow deviating from the threads topic.

Kolla's criticism may be valid, but he should write this into his own thread which then handles this topic and not pollute every Vampire thread.

That's simply common sense and basic forum etiquette.


Also, people on A1K don't give a shit so much, since there is so much other hardware to talk about. You don't like the Vampire? No problem, since there are Matzes new hardware designs, Jens new stuff, Wicher, Amy2K in whose threads you can spend time in etc..

It's okay to not like something. But don't spoil the fun for others who do.

Again, that's simply basic respect for other people and etiquette.
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Old 26 September 2018, 09:58   #114
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Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
@Mr.Flibble:

Would you like to add something on-topic than, to archive exactly what you wish for?
Have you tested the new core?
I was hoping to be able to read some information from others who may have tested the core, currently my A500 with the vampire isn’t in a runnable state.

I don’t think this is an unreasonable position.
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Old 26 September 2018, 10:15   #115
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But you, being German, can check out the A1K forum. Check out the Vampire threads and you will see that they are way more civil. You will also see the reason WHY those threads are way more civil and productive.
a1k was _exactly_ like this place. Then the first of the moderators got a Vampire card and eventually could check what is valid criticism and what is just stalking by opinionated people with a personal agenda. Then moderation started and people spreading FUD were told off for doing so. This is when Vampire-related discussions on a1k became civil. Have a look for yourself, this is the corresponding thread on the Gold3 Alpha core on a1k:

https://www.a1k.org/forum/showthread.php?t=67391

Some people expressing their happiness, others stating that they are not going to do the alpha testing. Some pointing out that the Gold3 Alpha core has neither RTG nor FPU, some testing and reporting their findings (including screenshots).

Here on EAB the only moderation taking place is closing Vampire-related topics and thus effectively giving the stalkers what they want.

So you say the criticism should be responded to in discussion? Yes, in an ideal world that would happen. But the same points have been brought up many times by the same people and they were answered with detailed explanations and reasoning. This does not stop the very same people to state the very same thing in different places again and again. It is very exhausting to counter their statements because it is much easier to make an ignorant statement than it is to prove it wrong.

kolla has stated many times that the Vampire cards lack stability and compatibility. How are you going to counter that statement? Many people have stated that they do not have the same problems. It has been suggested that he may have one of three problems:

a) bad connection between his v600 and the 68000 the v600 connects to
b) weak power supply or aging Amiga
c) a faulty card

He never cared to find out nor to get a replacement card for his card in case option c) applies. He obviously _enjoys_ having a bad card because he can use it to show to others what he can cloak as a lack of compatibility of the core (and thus as a problem innate to all cards) when it is really only an individual fault. And, as you can see in this thread, owning a card makes his statements appear more reasoned than actually getting rid of what he doesn't appreciate. There is more demand than supply for Vampire cards. It would be easy to quit. But he doesn't want to. He wants to continue stalking the project because Gunnar insulted him.

Now the thing is: Gunnar doesn't care, he's not even here. Yes, Gunnar has offended quite a few people. Just like Linus Torvalds has offended a lot of people but gets things done. The downside is: we others do care about Vampire-related discussions and do not like each and every single thread to be derailed. We would like actual moderation to take place.
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Old 26 September 2018, 10:15   #116
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Dear eab administrators,

please would you clean this thread and move all conspiracy thesis also from other threads to another own category tree like "conspiracy thesis around the Amiga" with under categories e. g. for Apollo, OS 4 and so on. It's irritating to read such dirty crap in every second entry.
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Old 26 September 2018, 12:08   #117
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Originally Posted by grond View Post
a1k was _exactly_ like this place. Then the first of the moderators got a Vampire card and eventually could check what is valid criticism and what is just stalking by opinionated people with a personal agenda. Then moderation started and people spreading FUD were told off for doing so. This is when Vampire-related discussions on a1k became civil. Have a look for yourself, this is the corresponding thread on the Gold3 Alpha core on a1k:

https://www.a1k.org/forum/showthread.php?t=67391

Some people expressing their happiness, others stating that they are not going to do the alpha testing. Some pointing out that the Gold3 Alpha core has neither RTG nor FPU, some testing and reporting their findings (including screenshots).
I'd love to see that, and it would give me a chance to practice more, as I am learning German. But sadly I cannot see anything there, as I don't have an account there, and they're not taking new account registrations.
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Old 26 September 2018, 12:38   #118
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How to be serious with this when lately I was accused that I signed contract with Microsoft to ruin Amiga with this project.
Did I ever send you any mail? Do not confuse me with Cosmos.

As I (and Chucky too) have said over and over, apparently for deaf ears, we do not hate the Vampire cards, we actually like them, awesome engineering. The "technical" problems are elsewhere, in the Apollo Core 68080, and for some (not me), in SAGA. The "social" problems are all over the place.

Why do I not sell my Vampire cards? I am not in economical problems, I am still curious about where SAGA will go (though this release left me rather puzzled), I still have hopes that alternative CPU cores for V2 may appear in the future. Also, whenever some hype is coming from "the team" (that guy, you know), I can easily verify its validity.
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Old 26 September 2018, 12:56   #119
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Dear eab administrators,

please would you clean this thread and move all conspiracy thesis also from other threads to another own category tree like "conspiracy thesis around the Amiga" with under categories e. g. for Apollo, OS 4 and so on. It's irritating to read such dirty crap in every second entry.
Second to that. Do we have sheriffs here or you gonna let it convert into early wild west? The wanted list starts expanding so please start shooting!
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Old 26 September 2018, 14:39   #120
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@kolla I ll try to reply to your statements you posted few threads back. Please understand that I can't speak about certain things publicly but between lines you could understand. I don't care much about bad publicity someone creates about this project. It is not about how many cards we will build or sell and that someone could with his comments ruin something. Again, it is not about the money. Think it like this, every person in the team with his knowledge could earn much more without Amiga related projects. Thing that keeping us together is our goal to bring something new. Let's say that I design just memory module for modern computer, let's say that I only make agreement to sell it in my city I could earn fortune within one year. Ok let's try to answer now.

Quote:
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@LordAGA
Ok, how about this, from the top of my head... Gunnar's big plan is failing.
* interest for apollo core outside Amiga is minimal/non-existing
* interest and enthusiasm for apollo core inside Amiga communities is dwindling
* coders and developers are not flocking to support apollo core
* still no support in any toolchains and compilers
* so all software support comes from the same two-three guys
* other hardware manufacturers are not interested
* prices for hardware is not as low as he wanted (and he was warned)
* becoming the new "baseline" for 68k Amiga hardware is not happening
* delays and more delays, and he used to ridicule others for delays
* core was criticised for being too tied to a specific FPGA, now struggles with porting it
...
1. I don't see that plan is failing, we constantly work on the project. But what is the plan. As we joke on IRC to rule the world Jokes aside, it took lot of effort to make Apollo-core working on Amiga.
2. Interest for core itself outside of Amiga community we never discussed seriously. Atari community members only contacted us few times.
3. Interest in Amiga community, hm numbers says differently. At the beginning I didn't expect that there will be more than 100 cards build, now, like grond said we are at 4 digits, every single day at least 5 card orders. Most important thing is that all the time we receiving nice mails where we see that because of this project people getting back to Amiga. Thing I m proud the most is that we are ensured that cheap Ebay Arduino modules could be used on Amiga. This is something that going slow but it is happening.
4. Coders and developers are supporting Apollo, question is how many of them exist anymore. Once standalone version or A1200 version is done this will change for sure. With standalone version others will join, others who are exploring, searching for something new, who are not connected with Amiga.
5. As for support for compilers, there is support, how do you think people in the team compile stuff for Apollo, search our forums for more info.
6. As for support, it should exist the way it works in other communities. Can I comment support for some of my software I paid a lot to use on my PC and support service for it? Can I expect from them the same like we are doing here, to get reply within few minutes?
7. About other hardware manufacturers. There is lot to say about this topic. Let's say that whoever did Amiga hardware in last 10 years contacted us to start production, but not just Amiga hardware. We got many offers. But those mails speak for themselves and reading them could reveal truth about real intentions. Can't say much more, but no one was serious enough. Either by not having enough money to invest or with secret agenda to just ruin this complete project. Many don't see how is hard to organize production and each batch needs huge investment. Also for simple test, who is capable of doing what I have send number of blank PCB's. Conclusion was that there were no cards done properly by someone else, no working cards at all. Same time there were no economical sense to do them. Only person who made working card from blank PCB was kipper2k. And even this time when I m talking about this there will be someone who will claim that he can do it. We stopped sending blank PCB because showed no results. In fact for at least a year we have good organization with access to several PCBA companies who are doing nice job for us. Also, as you can see that cards are sold in every major Amiga hardware shop. That also shows that interest is good.
8. Price of the hardware was not something Gunnar decided. You blame him for everything, and there are plenty decisions he didn't make inside team. When there is something I talk with him on private he always says, let's include others in this discussion because their opinion could be valid. I could say only that he had problems with me, because I m stubborn person and have hard time working in the team. He had always patience for my calls and decisions same time pushing me more to do better job. Team is good because each of us have different skills. Sometimes I don't understand what others are talking about some subject, sometimes they don't understand me. But we are learning. I feel privileged that I m there and that we all learn together. As for price, again, lot of things changed since we started. I wrote about that number of times so I won't repeat myself.
9. Apollo core as a new baseline is happening, for me, it is next logical step. Again, numbers tells me differently and mails I m receiving how people are excited after one day of usage. The fact that there are no new programs is not related to the core. I didn't see lot of software done for 060 also, or for PPC. It is simply lack of developers. They could be motivated to do something if strong user base is established. But think it like this, good programmer, if we are talking about the money, could earn more doing PC software then he could earn from user base counting, eventually, 10 000 Apollo core users. This needs to be done differently. Same way you can't motivate me with money to enter some other project than this.
10. Delays, you are talking about. Let's be rude now, people, all of them got inside their cards what they paid for. They got it already. We are not on someones paycheck or in some company where someone is pushing us to finish something in certain period of time. It was maybe stupid from us that we set deadline for something and put on our shoulders additional pressure. I think that because lot of false promises in Amiga scene people got scared that this project will die like many others, and from there some bad reactions are going on. Question is, would you, or some others like to see end of the project. Then after 10 years people could say, that could be something, that was maybe last chance to see something, maybe, good for Amiga.
11. Speaking about core too tied for some FPGA. Porting takes time. As you can see Intel published new Cyclone 10 who is based on Cyclone III/IV and not on Cyclone V. Why is that? If you track some other projects FPGA related, you could easily see that some things Altera did with that series created lot of problems for even more serious projects than we have here. So what, we overcome so far many problems, with this one it will be the same.

I really hope that I have answered your questions. But you see, it took me 2 hours to write this answer instead working on the project. Critics is good but remember what happened with NATAMI and remember that forum and people's demands and pressure they put on that team. I won't say that all failed by creating additional pressure but I really think that this was one of the reasons. I think that we listen. If you look at core revision logs you could see what's fixed based on user reports. It was long road from Silver1 core to today's revision. No one can say that core didn't see improvement. People who complained before complain even now, and they will always do that no matter what we do. That's reality. But then again, there are other projects you could support or create your own. I know from my side, like I was doing in past years that will be happy to help get you started. My only complaint to other developers was that for years we didn't have something new regarding accelerators. Now we have it. Is it good or not, time will tell. As for Gunnar I would only say from my personal view knowing his skills that we should be happy that he sticks with this project with huge motivation. If he or someone else inside team was rude to you, suck it up for higher cause if you love the Amiga. I know, I argue with him every single day saying thank's God that we are not in the same room

Last edited by majsta; 26 September 2018 at 15:48.
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