22 June 2017, 20:35 | #101 |
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22 June 2017, 21:04 | #102 |
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22 June 2017, 21:31 | #103 |
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By the way: Gunnar has made a first small step towards multiprocessing on Apollo and enabled Hyperthreading.
Once there is software that takes advantage of 2 virtual cores, the demand for a real MP setup will rise. |
22 June 2017, 22:54 | #104 |
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It will be interesting to see the performance evaluated. I'm not as big of a fan of hyper-threading. You take a strong core and allow multiple tasks to share that core giving multiple weaker performing tasks. There is usually an overall benefit in the amount of work done as tasks often spend time waiting (for memory, cache fills, branch misses, etc.) but sometimes multi-threading gives worse performance and it is difficult to determine automatically when it is best to reduce the number of threads or turn it off. It makes sense for applications which consistently have many parallel tasks like a server. For a PC or gaming, I want more and many powerful cores with SMP. Multi-threading should be much cheaper to implement than another core or FPU though.
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22 June 2017, 23:27 | #105 | ||||||
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About high clock, at the time, the market always ask for more mhz, not carring about energy efficiency, if i remember correctly. Quote:
And, about the SIMD unit (Max 1 instruction ?), they were designed partialy by Dr Helpler for Hombre and integrated in the HP-PA Hombre core, if have i correctly understand some of his interview. HP use this for himself after (i guess). Quote:
If Amiga is 11 %, MAC 6 %, PC is 83 %, so Amiga is not a leader. This is why in one of my timeline (a world without PC) i make the PC compatible disapears from the market in the end 80. But they are 68000 based, not X86 in that timeline. So MAC, ST and Amiga are compatible and far better for less money (expect for the MAC that is not better and more expensive). In this timeline, Apple collaspe in the mid 90, just a little time after going PPC. Commodore choose the HP-PA way, and Atari go PPC (and NeXT also). Commodore buy HP and continue the HP-PA (multicore) to today. Commodore (Amiga) have more or less 50 % of the market at this time, and since some years ago. The Amiga have many first for technology, so they are leader. Atari is second with Falcon PPC (multicore) like computers (with 3DFX in house for the 3D chipset). NeXT is in third place, with PPC (multicore) and Nvidia in house for 3D chipset. AMD make PPC compatible processor (after making 68k compatible in the 80/90) |
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23 June 2017, 01:19 | #106 | |
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Microsoft made more damage to planet, society and prosperity than all wars, corruptions, pollution in past half century combined! |
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23 June 2017, 02:06 | #107 | |
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In my calculations 11% is the minimum we must have reached by now - the maximum at 17%. But this is only the PC market: we had the best selling console - the AmigaPS - for 4 years now. and it is basically the same hardware and the same OS. So if we look at a combined console+PC market, we would have probably a share of 22-26%. |
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23 June 2017, 04:39 | #108 | |||
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http://www.anandtech.com/show/8357/e...r-platforms/17 I made a picture of where the 68k could be in raw average energy (like performance/watt) if a 68k CPU was the same performance but 42% more power efficient than the in order Atom (the 68060 was about the same performance and used 42% less max power than the most comparable Pentium). I have attached the image which shows the 68k CPU could be the overall best in performance/watt compared to several ARM and x86 processors (lower is better). The OoO ARM Cortex-A9 gives energy efficient performance but requires more cores and caches to scale up to match the more powerful in order CISC cores which are better for performance tasks like gaming. Last edited by matthey; 23 June 2017 at 23:36. |
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23 June 2017, 12:13 | #109 | |
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24 June 2017, 01:07 | #110 |
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Acorn was a business success. The owners (which changed) and management chose to diversify into more profitable business segments and drop less profitable ones (the PC market is cyclical and they were caught in a downturn in the economy). This is a pattern for a growth company where you grow as fast as possible and sell pieces when there is a good opportunity. They could have kept their divisions, diversified and focused on cash flow thus becoming a conglomerate rewarding their investors with dividends instead (it is still necessary to cull dinosaur divisions). Acorn chose the growth business method which is often less kind to customers and employees but they did a super job of innovating, finding new markets and increasing shareholder value. Creating the ARM processor took great vision and was not easy to do at that time. The resulting ARM Holdings rewarded Acorn investors immensely as they went into the embedded market. I don't know if ARM Holdings had access to RISC OS but it is not as suitable for RTOS as the AmigaOS which has preemptive multitasking and a smaller footprint. ARM eventually obtained their own RTOS called RTX.
https://www.arm.com/products/tools/s...ing-system.php Check out the features of RTX and then compare them to AmigaOS and RISC OS. The AmigaOS resembles a modern RTOS more than it does a modern desktop OS. RISC OS has some advantages which are great for embedded use also like open sources, modularity, fast boot and fast, affordable and energy efficient new hardware (with ARM CPU still). I expect RISC OS is being used more for embedded applications than the AmigaOS is right now with the current owners hiding it away. |
24 June 2017, 15:33 | #111 | ||||
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It is why i don't like the Commodore strategy. They let Amiga going with the "console" tag. Lot of "professionnal" think Amiga is only a console, not a computer that can do serious work. So expect for the video and earlier multimedia, Amiga don't enter in office. And we know now that THIS IS the market that make a computer the main standard. So 22 to 26 % with console, as i see it, can't make Amiga defeat the PC. If i understand correctly, it is the main platform in your timeline as it is now ? I like what you have create with your timeline, expect that PC is the main platform. I have many times dreamed of a world were Amiga is the main platform and PC out. Quote:
But i agree, performance/watt is the way to go. Quote:
As i understand it, MAX 1 was designed for the HP-PA included in Hombre, by Dr Helpler. After Commodore is out, HP salvage this for their HP-PA (the 7100LC is the first to include it. |
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24 June 2017, 16:11 | #112 | ||||||
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Or by supporting the flicker free productivity-screenmode in Amber since 1989. But to survive we needed numbers and 1992 was an excellent year to start with a 32-bit cd-equipped console. If you look back in history it is clear, that there was a big gap between 16-bit consoles and the arrival of the Sony PS. We filled that gap. Quote:
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We are strong on multimedia, digital video and photo, DTP, databases (Wang), servers, networking and internet. The classical office is "surrounded" by us: as soon as you need one of the above features in addition to word and excel, you are better off with an Amiga. And through our OLE patents we forced MS to port Office to AmigaOS and use our IFF-format to save files Quote:
But this can also be a good thing: Look at Apple iOS vs. Android. There are many companies selling Android phones - but actually only one of them in making some money (Samsung) - all others are so much fighting each other, that no one actually earns money! And Apple? they do not license iOS. They provide hard- AND software and while only having 20% marketshare Apple gets 80% of all profit. Ergo: as long as we make profit, 25% are healthy and enough to provide a good ecosystem for programmers and users. And unlike Apple, we will not just sit on that money: we reinvest almost everything in research and development. Quote:
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24 June 2017, 17:06 | #113 | ||||||
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I have miss the amber since 1989. But remember an interview of Jay Miner from 1988. He was asked "do you think Amiga can compete to PC (as the main platform). And he respond "No, i think it's too late". At the time i don't understand why he have said that. The Amiga is ahead from PC in many fields. But, he was right, now i see it. But, you right, Commodore do a far better job with Amiga in your timelime. At the time, if Amiga have 11 % of the market, it have made me very happy. Quote:
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The only software i know that Miscrosft have do for Amiga is an unoptimised software (AmigaBasic). They care nothing about optimizing and using Amiga. I remember that native word processing software by indepent compagnies are always faster and better than what PC compagnies do on Amiga (wordperfect is what i have in mind) Quote:
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research and development, i like it. In the beginning Commodore do it a lot. It's later they reduce it each years. Quote:
Last edited by babsimov; 25 June 2017 at 11:48. |
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25 June 2017, 02:48 | #114 | |
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25 June 2017, 20:24 | #115 | ||
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Even if Wolfenstein and Doom had come out for the Amiga first, it was probably already too late. The IBM compatible PC may have already had too much market share by the time the Amiga came out (Jay Miner was insightful). Maybe IBM would have chose the 68k if Motorola had brought out the 68008 at the same time or soon after the 68000 but they may have been worried about supply still. Maybe this was the destiny of the 68k and Amiga only to be changed by the end of Moore's law, the invisible hand and the next great visionary, if only we could recognize him. Quote:
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26 June 2017, 11:11 | #116 | ||||
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Apple tries this for a short while in the 90s and it almost killed them. NeXT stopped selling hardware and moved to software only - and so did Be. Both did nor really succeed - NeXT only got lucky, to become Apples new OS. Otherwise it would have been dead by the year 2000. So the best chance to survive the 90s is staying focused on building computers, the people just love. Quote:
Sure, I do not see a way to gain total leadership in the market, but that is not necessary - maybe it would even be a bad thing. Amiga is probably better off being the "underdog". Being different and better. Not being just a ordinary boring computer you see everyday. But we would have our strongholds: not only in special markets like video, but also in some countries, where we would be "mainstream". (you can compare that to the browser-usage-stats, where almost everybody uses Chrome, but Germany uses Firefox, Japan uses IE and Africa uses Opera) 15-20% marketshare would be more than enough to provide a stable and healthy ecosystem, as Apple has proven with under 10%. Quote:
Atari, DEC, Sun, SGI, Wang, Acorn... Quote:
As soon as your desktop marketshare drops under 5% you are dead. No matter how healthy your company is otherwise, you will not come back from this. Developers will leave -> no new software -> customers will leave. Acorn had a 24% share of ARM. ARM did well and Acorn was rich on paper. Did not help them to keep the platform alive. All the diversifying I did in my alternate timeline, was carefully chosen, to provide the most effective synergies and (important!) attract new customers to our main Amiga-platform. I still think, with the right choices made, Amiga as a widely used platform, could have survived, like the Mac did. (Not sure if both Mac and Amiga could have survived...) Last edited by Gorf; 26 June 2017 at 11:45. |
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26 June 2017, 20:30 | #117 | |
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http://www.amigahistory.plus.com/leweggebrecht.html In one of my alternate story, i use this as a basis (A world without PC, but it's in french, sorry). IBM PC was 68000, all the market is 68000 (MAC/ST/Amiga). So only with a sofware emulator they can run PC sofware. But the Amiga is the only one that can run all others plaforms sofware with sofware emulator, and make them multitask and copy paste files between them. So with a "office" strategy from the start, Commodore make the Amiga a serious platform on office market, and at the end of 90... PC disapear because it's not as "ahead" than other platform. Microsoft products never become standard. |
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26 June 2017, 23:53 | #118 |
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The crux is that OS/2, which could do exactly that, faded away.
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27 June 2017, 01:06 | #119 | ||||||
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It is important to have "different" products but it is necessary to sell enough for the economies of scale to bring the prices down. Quote:
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If the 68000 had been chosen by IBM, it would certainly have changed the whole PC landscape. All the 68k computers would have had much improved survival chances and the 68k would have likely become the standard instead of the x86 today. Emulation would have kept up where bridgeboards became less practical. It doesn't mean the preemptive multitasking AmigaOS would have won out though. IBM's OS/2 was superior in many ways to the competition windowed file browser over DOS software but even IBM's reputation could not make it a success. Edit: @idrougge I wrote a very similar comment about OS/2 not even seeing your comment yet . |
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27 June 2017, 01:36 | #120 | |
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There was even a developer release... All in all: Do not try to emulate other systems! Never!) The others need to emulate YOUR system: Wine does not help Linux, it helps MS. Nobody will port a pogramm/game to linux, if it runs just fine in Wine. The Sidecar did not help the Amiga! Is helped the PC. The other way around would have been better... |
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