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Old 16 May 2019, 23:16   #2181
Hewitson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jizmo View Post
Thanks for the answers – I've been always wondering why this behaviour was so random.

Sounds like it could've been fixed with some sort of file flag that tells the program to detach itself from Shell if run from there. But I guess us command line users were never a high priority for Commodore for whom CLI existed mostly to just run the scripts.
What? Every shell I've ever used has exactly the same behaviour.
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Old 16 May 2019, 23:19   #2182
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Originally Posted by Estrayk View Post
QUESTION:

I have always wondered how it is possible that the old photogenics could manipulate HAM8 images without HAM-artifacts. What kind of witchcraft was that?

Video from my real Amiga A1200:

[ Show youtube player ]
Well, in that video you do move stuff around fairly quickly and don't zoom in very far so it's kinda hard to see. It's quite possible that if you kept the images steady for longer and zoomed in so the individual pixels were shown more clearly that the HAM-8 artefacts would've been more visible.

It's also possible that Photogenics just is better than most other programs at picking which base registers to use. HAM-8 has enough base registers to allow for multiple hard colour switches on a screen without problems.

As it is, judging the video you've shown, it seems to me you can in fact see some HAM artefacts on the right edges of the spray paint - though I can't 100% guarantee. HAM-8 artefacts tend to be a lot more subtle than HAM-6 ones due to the higher number of base registers available and the far more subtle gradients the AGA chipset allows for.
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Old 17 May 2019, 00:18   #2183
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Originally Posted by roondar View Post
Well, in that video you do move stuff around fairly quickly and don't zoom in very far so it's kinda hard to see. It's quite possible that if you kept the images steady for longer and zoomed in so the individual pixels were shown more clearly that the HAM-8 artefacts would've been more visible.

It's also possible that Photogenics just is better than most other programs at picking which base registers to use. HAM-8 has enough base registers to allow for multiple hard colour switches on a screen without problems.

As it is, judging the video you've shown, it seems to me you can in fact see some HAM artefacts on the right edges of the spray paint - though I can't 100% guarantee. HAM-8 artefacts tend to be a lot more subtle than HAM-6 ones due to the higher number of base registers available and the far more subtle gradients the AGA chipset allows for.
Thx roondar,. it is possible that Photogenics open a super-hi-res screen for minimize the color-artifacts?
I ask you this because in version 5. HAM8 screens only can be open in super-hires.

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Old 17 May 2019, 08:39   #2184
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To test Photogenics magic (or no magic), you need to use a photo with harsh vertical lines and contrast. A smooth semi-gray-scale image "helps" HAM8 "hide".
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Old 17 May 2019, 12:14   #2185
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Originally Posted by Hewitson View Post
What? Every shell I've ever used has exactly the same behaviour.
Running programs on Mac terminal always returns the terminal to use if the program runs on a window. With Linux the prompt gets frozen unless followed by ampersand(&) which runs them in the background.

With Amiga the program detaches from CLI either automatically if the code exists or by using the RUN command, but there's really not knowing beforehand.

Just to make it clear, I'm not pointing blaming fingers on shell, but was just wandering why is this behaviour so random with Amiga. And I got the answer already earlier: It's up to the coder whether they want to do the extra work.
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Old 17 May 2019, 15:03   #2186
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Originally Posted by jizmo View Post
Running programs on Mac terminal always returns the terminal to use if the program runs on a window.
And probably even if you don't want it to ? What if your program wants to have both a window and do some console i/o ?

Same situation on Windows (and, as always, probably worse).
Sure it has a flag saying if it's gui or console application. And this is where the horror happens...
If it's console app, then it will open a console window, regardless if you want one or not.
If it's gui app, then the calling console (if there is one) will return immediately and wicked things happen if you try to do console i/o afterwards.

Really, the Amiga way is a magnitude better.
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Old 17 May 2019, 15:24   #2187
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Running programs on Mac terminal always returns the terminal to use if the program runs on a window. With Linux the prompt gets frozen unless followed by ampersand(&) which runs them in the background.
Garbage. I've just tried it. Besides why would the behaviour be any different when macOS and most Linux distributions are both using bash?
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Old 17 May 2019, 15:34   #2188
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Garbage. I've just tried it. Besides why would the behaviour be any different when macOS and most Linux distributions are both using bash?
Someone needs a chill plll and a lesson how to act less toxic.

I doubt the idea here is to attack anyone asking a question; at least the title of the thread suggests otherwise.
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Old 17 May 2019, 23:18   #2189
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In any case things are as they are. Good bad, this is what they are.
AmigaOS is based on Tripos FFS (not fastfilesystem... for-f*cks-sake)...
When AmigaOS did what it did, MS-DOS just couldn't. It was still far from this level.
Also Linux was not even born and Unix shells were WAY more limited that people are used to nowadays.
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Old 18 May 2019, 21:14   #2190
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Originally Posted by NLS View Post
AmigaOS is based on Tripos FFS (not fastfilesystem... for-f*cks-sake)...
When AmigaOS did what it did, MS-DOS just couldn't. It was still far from this level.
Errr, some things are upside down here. Amiga*D*os is based on Tripos, but AmigaDOS is only what you know by today as the dos.library, the filesystem, the ram-handler, the con-handler, the pipe-handler, the port-handler, the queue-handler and the shell. Intuition, exec, graphics... are all native implementations. That is AmigaOs (without the 'D').

Then, Tripos is not FFS. Tripos includes a file system, and that file system is what one calls today OFS (type DOS\0). The *Fast* file system came later, and compared to OFS, and even compared to other file systems on the Amiga, it is actually fast. FFS is a native assembler implementation that fixes one important thing compared to OFS (the BCPL implementation), namely that a data block contains only data.

This sounds "mostly harmless" but has the most important consequence that the FFS can directly initiate DMA from the user buffer to the hard disk, which triggered a couple of device driver bugs and constructions such as "Mask", "Maxtransfer" and "Bufmemtype" (all workarounds), but improved speed noticably.

The only thing that is slow about the fast file system is listing directories because each "entry" is one block (unlike in other file systems). Finding files, renaming files, reading files... that is probably faster with the FFS than any other file system.

Anyhow. It is a dated architecture, with a couple of problems. It does not provide a journal, and does not operate in transactions. It allocates blocks with a bitmap, centrally (bad idea, damage it and your risk data integrity of the entire partition).
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Old 18 May 2019, 23:38   #2191
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questions about amiga games:
1) one of my favourite pc's game when I was a kid was Lakers vs Celtics, why doesn't exists an amiga conversion?

2) wasn't at any time grand prix 2 supposed to be released for amiga? Surely hardware requirements were a big problem
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Old 19 May 2019, 01:16   #2192
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Errr, some things are upside down here. Amiga*D*os is based on Tripos, but AmigaDOS is only what you know by today as the dos.library, the filesystem, the ram-handler, the con-handler, the pipe-handler, the port-handler, the queue-handler and the shell. Intuition, exec, graphics... are all native implementations. That is AmigaOs (without the 'D').
Very true. The syntax of the commands comes from Tripos though. If you are not sure, you can read the original tripos manual. I suspect how processes are handled and if I/O is released also comes from there. Not the actual implementation, but at least the idea of how to do it.

Quote:
Then, Tripos is not FFS. Tripos includes a file system, and that file system is what one calls today OFS (type DOS\0). The *Fast* file system came later, and compared to OFS, and even compared to other file systems on the Amiga, it is actually fast. FFS is a native assembler implementation that fixes one important thing compared to OFS (the BCPL implementation), namely that a data block contains only data.
This sounds "mostly harmless" but has the most important consequence that the FFS can directly initiate DMA from the user buffer to the hard disk, which triggered a couple of device driver bugs and constructions such as "Mask", "Maxtransfer" and "Bufmemtype" (all workarounds), but improved speed noticably.
The only thing that is slow about the fast file system is listing directories because each "entry" is one block (unlike in other file systems). Finding files, renaming files, reading files... that is probably faster with the FFS than any other file system.
Very nice, but I don't know why you explain all this, seems the core of your reply stems from that you obviously didn't read my parenthesis. I never talked about fastfilesystem.

Quote:
Anyhow. It is a dated architecture, with a couple of problems. It does not provide a journal, and does not operate in transactions. It allocates blocks with a bitmap, centrally (bad idea, damage it and your risk data integrity of the entire partition).
True.
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Old 19 May 2019, 11:27   #2193
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Originally Posted by jolly11 View Post
questions about amiga games:
1) one of my favourite pc's game when I was a kid was Lakers vs Celtics, why doesn't exists an amiga conversion?
It doesn't exist on the Amiga but try these:

... Double Dribble
... Magic Johnson's Basketball

The best basketball game on the Amiga though is probably the classic TV Sports: Basketball
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Old 19 May 2019, 12:23   #2194
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One on One was very nice with its simplicity too.
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Old 19 May 2019, 15:43   #2195
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It doesn't exist on the Amiga but try these:

... Double Dribble
... Magic Johnson's Basketball

The best basketball game on the Amiga though is probably the classic TV Sports: Basketball
Right, I agree with you, tv sports basketball is the best basketball game on the amiga..I don't like very much the other two you said

@NLS: yes, another good game! I've played a lot the commodore 64's version and I prefer it to the amiga's one
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Old 19 May 2019, 18:28   #2196
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Garbage. I've just tried it. Besides why would the behaviour be any different when macOS and most Linux distributions are both using bash?
I am by no means an expert on this, but there is a command called 'open' on macOS that is used to open (run) an application from the the command line as if you clicked on it. It detaches and returns to the shell when the application opens (in its own window). Normally you probably do not use it as you click to start or select from the dock. I suppose there might be a way to start without stating 'open' on the application (bundle), but I have never bothered about it as I tend to start from the dock and leave it running.

Otherwise macOS is a UNIX so it behaves as Linux, if you do something that blocks the shell, you can always ctrl-z and then send it to background if desired.

I do not think anyone is better or worse. Well, the Amiga is perhaps a little bit less flexible than UNIX (no job control) and programs may be a bit more inconsistent in this respect, as it is up to the program to decide.

As usual I know virtually nothing about using Windows so I cannot comment on it.
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Old 20 May 2019, 12:21   #2197
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Again, we need to realize the context. When Amiga was released, what alternative was available, ESPECIALLY at the price range.
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Old 20 May 2019, 12:37   #2198
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So do anyone recall ARP?
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Old 20 May 2019, 12:57   #2199
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You were embarrassed to ask that?
:P
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Old 20 May 2019, 13:20   #2200
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I am blushing, can't you tell? ARP, AmigaDOS replacement project, it was an interesting and at the time, much needed project. A bit redundant today perhaps, as entire AmigaOS has been replaced a couple of times over already. It would be interesting to get "AROS DOS" working under AmigaOS though.
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