Head bobbing in FPSes

[roondar]

Mod note: Some posts taken out of the "new amiga 500 doom like !" thread as they were getting too off-topic:
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=98654

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Originally Posted by rabidgerry

B) Have a walking motion up and down type movement (the floating across the floor vibe really gets on my tits)

Heh, funny. I always (as in 100% of the time) remove any head bobbing in games that support it being off. Makes it so much more comfortable to watch for me.

I've been known to quite literally get sea sickness like symptoms from games that have "strong head bobbing"

Oh well, it takes all sorts. And yeah, I'm just weird that way. My friend once played Tomb Raider on the PS1 with me watching and that ended with me rushing to the bathroom from how nauseous that made me. Still have it with something like 10-15% of 3D games. So I never got to complete Half Life 2 because it's weird FOV setting made me do the bathroom run as well

[rabidgerry]

Originally Posted by roondar

Heh, funny. I always (as in 100% of the time) remove any head bobbing in games that support it being off. Makes it so much more comfortable to watch for me.

I've been known to quite literally get sea sickness like symptoms from games that have "strong head bobbing"

Oh well, it takes all sorts. And yeah, I'm just weird that way. My friend once played Tomb Raider on the PS1 with me watching and that ended with me rushing to the bathroom from how nauseous that made me. Still have it with something like 10-15% of 3D games. So I never got to complete Half Life 2 because it's weird FOV setting made me do the bathroom run as well

Man you must have the worst travel/motion sickness of all time. You should get those sea sick tablets they have for that sort of thing. Then get as much head bobbing as you fucking can before they were off and you vomit.

[roondar]

Originally Posted by rabidgerry

Man you must have the worst travel/motion sickness of all time.

I'll answer this one for fun and then I'll jump back to only on-topic stuff again

So, err, no - not really. I have motion sickness sensitivity on seafaring boats and I can't read/watch screens in busses without feeling nauseous, but that's about it. I most often have it with certain 3D games.

Doom was actually one of the first games that gave it to me (but only in a really mild form and I could mostly mitigate it by not moving too fast).

---
As far as the discussion on looks of various FPS's goes, I did think Doom nailed the look quite well. On the Amiga side, I actually felt AB3D-II was really atmospheric. It may be heresy, but overall I think I like the look of AB3D-II better than either version of Doom. But it's all subjective

[malko]

^ It doesn't make me sick but I've always found this head movement ridiculous because I've never had the feeling of "running" in these games.
And even when I run in real life, I have never seen/felt my head/eyes, moving in such a way...

Seriously, even when you graze the keyboard to move, the head swings (as if you were jumping on the spot) ...

The only thing that this movement in Doom (and others) reminds me of are those animals that you put in the car and move their heads when the car is moving...

[rabidgerry]

Originally Posted by malko

^ It doesn't make me sick but I've always found this head movement ridiculous because I've never had the feeling of "running" in these games.
And even when I run in real life, I have never seen/felt my head/eyes, moving in such a way...

Seriously, even when you graze the keyboard to move forward, the head swings (as if you were jumping on the spot) ...

The only thing that this movement in Doom (and others) reminds me of are those animals that you put in the car and move their heads when the car is moving...

Sure it's not mega realistic but it beats the hell outta floating across a floor perfectly level. Play Citadel and tell me if you like floating across floors?


***edit*** I've a new name for the floating it's called "the conveyor belt effect"

[roondar]

Well, it may be odd to you, but even when I don't get motion sickness I still prefer the non-bobbing camera. Head bobbing IMHO never actually works to make things realistic because your brain is well aware you are not actually moving.

To me, it never looked like more than the camera moving up and down without any real reason. And I still hold to that even today - head bobbing is an illusion that doesn't work at all well because you know you yourself aren't moving. The results are jarring to me, removing rather than adding immersion.

Anyway, I think this is one of those "can't argue with opinion" kinda things. I've certainly seen arguments on both sides

[rabidgerry]

Originally Posted by roondar

Well, it may be odd to you, but even when I don't get motion sickness I still prefer the non-bobbing camera. Head bobbing IMHO never actually works to make things realistic because your brain is well aware you are not actually moving.

To me, it never looked like more than the camera moving up and down without any real reason. And I still hold to that even today - head bobbing is an illusion that doesn't work at all well because you know you yourself aren't moving. The results are jarring to me, removing rather than adding immersion.

Anyway, I think this is one of those "can't argue with opinion" kinda things. I've certainly seen arguments on both sides

Jesus don't take it so personally.

So you're saying floating is more realistic? Ok then have it your way.

I tell you what isn't realistic, running about a big fucking maze shooting monsters!

Come on it's a game none of it's realistic, it's all meant to be an approximation isn't is? Splitting hairs over trivial details here.

So motion to me is better than no motion.

I have never once played a computer game and felt that because movement wasn't realistic I would prefer it not to be there.

[roondar]

Originally Posted by rabidgerry

Jesus don't take it so personally.

Err, all I did was give my opinion
You're more than welcome to have yours

[rabidgerry]

Originally Posted by roondar

Err, all I did was give my opinion
You're more than welcome to have yours

Absolutely.

As I mentioned though none of its realistic.

If Citadel was faster, and had some kind of motion effect, be it a little side to side or up and down it would be better I think. Oh and no annoying bumping into walls.

[IanS]

Originally Posted by roondar

---
As far as the discussion on looks of various FPS's goes, I did think Doom nailed the look quite well. On the Amiga side, I actually felt AB3D-II was really atmospheric. It may be heresy, but overall I think I like the look of AB3D-II better than either version of Doom. But it's all subjective

AB3D 2 was very atmospheric, there's something about the lighting, the textures and design of the surroundings. Not to mention the audio. The layout of the levels wasn't as good as AB3D and overall, I thought the original was a better game. I never got round to completing AB3D2. DOOM was excellent, it was breathtaking to look at and play... but looking back, the overall look of the game could have been better.

[spiff]

Things that thankfully have been resolved:
"realistic" piss-filter, BLOOM!, slippery ice worlds, Borne shaky cam, 3rd person is a tank controller, Kinnect, Head bobbing

Things that we still need to work on:
Unskippable cutscene, save before unskippable cutscene, controls can't be remapped, gambling in kids games, collect-a-thon padding and fetch quests.

[rabidgerry]

Originally Posted by IanS

AB3D 2 was very atmospheric, there's something about the lighting, the textures and design of the surroundings. Not to mention the audio. The layout of the levels wasn't as good as AB3D and overall, I thought the original was a better game. I never got round to completing AB3D2. DOOM was excellent, it was breathtaking to look at and play... but looking back, the overall look of the game could have been better.

Yes I get that from AB3D2 also. I confess to having jumped quite a number of times playing it and I haven't gotten far in it as I was waiting till I had a better accelerator to do so (which I now have).

Jeez I have no issues with Doom at all. And for the time I think any shortcomings it has can be pardoned. I dunno what everyone's background is here and what their levels for judging games are but I know myself and my friends still think Doom as great. None of them are really modern gamers.

If you look back at any old games you are going to say "could have been better", of course you are because well standards are totally different now. I still think polygon 3d Amiga games are really good and lets face it, they are nothing compared to what was to come.

[-Acid-]

Bobbing is ridiculous.... looked like a good idea early on in the game but now just no. When you run outside you bob up and down that much is true, but your eyes compensate for it to the point where you do not even notice it - so what are they trying to simulate in games by doing it?

[Tsak]

Originally Posted by -Acid-

Bobbing is ridiculous.... looked like a good idea early on in the game but now just no. When you run outside you bob up and down that much is true, but your eyes compensate for it to the point where you do not even notice it - so what are they trying to simulate in games by doing it?

They were trying to negate "the conveyor belt effect" @rabidgerry is talking about. However it's true that the method used is both flawed, unrealistic and (as a result) often nausiating to many players.

Many modern fps games are well aware of this problem and have long since found different elegant solutions. So instead of plain head bobing (where the camera is moving up and down) you've got a very slight camera tilt, but on a fixed central focal point (just like you would in real life).

Other than that, most of the actual movement is conveyed to the player via his gun and arms animations. So f.e. when you run, your gun swings and moves faster and in a different angle.

[Glen M]

I don't really like the bobbing effect but I can understand why it is implemented in some of these early FPS games as it helps with the immersion of the sudo 3D environment. In the very least some gun animation is a must but I think in doom if you only had the gun swaying without the bobbing it wouldn't look right. I think its a case of doing what they could with what they had.

With everything staying put and the citadel floating conveyor belt effect™ it does take away from the immersion, for me anyway. BTW I'm 99% sure your character in Citadel is portrayed as flying hence the conveyor belt effect is justified.

The only thing that makes me nauseous in games is a long fall. In anything from Doom to Roblox (have to play it with my son, bloody addictive at times) a long fall off any surface will nearly every time make my stomach jump as if your on a roller coaster.

[lilalurl]

Originally Posted by Glen M

the immersion of the sudo 3D environment.

Let me guess, you are an heavy Linux user, aren't you?

[gimbal]

Might also be Mac you know

[Glen M]

Originally Posted by lilalurl

Let me guess, you are an heavy Linux user, aren't you?

Actually, I just can't spell.

Pseudo is a stupid word.

[Nobby_UK]

Since we are talking game induced motion sickness
how about FOV ?

I normally set mine to 100

[Foebane]

I must've been BORN to play FPS games, as I've never EVER had nausea, from any such game. I set my FOV to 90, as it should be, but if a game has altered it, like HL2, I probably don't mind so much.

Head bobbing happens in (I guess) all id Software games, but even Unreal had it too, even when you were standing still.

In real-life, I've flown on commercial airliners AND DC-10s (the propeller-driven old-fashioned planes) and only on the latter did it push me, but my patient sister blocked my view of someone being sick so I didn't have to be I have also been on boats across the English Channel, bobbing, but not enough to make me heave. The only time I did throw up was when I was a little kid and we'd gone somewhere in our grandparent's car via a whole bunch of winding country lanes that went up and down, and I never looked out of the window. Funnily enough, carsickness is the only thing that has pushed me to puke.

But FPS games? Naaah. Never.