13 January 2017, 00:13 | #41 | |
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It cannot reach CD quality on neither bandwidth nor signal-to-noise ratio and that is why 16 bit 44.1kHz is enough for sampling Paula audio. Yes, it does generate >20kHz harmonics which are removed when sampling it, but unless you're a labrador you cannot hear that anyway.. |
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13 January 2017, 01:25 | #42 | |
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As for it sounding bad, I've played back many 16 bit stereo 28khz WAVs (down sampled with Sox) on my A1200, and most sound fine. My peecee can do better, but bad? No... although some classical music doesn't sound great. |
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13 January 2017, 01:30 | #43 |
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Sound is physics and so are colors. Thus it can be treated 100% objectively. Sound quality on the other hand can be a subjective term, but it can also be treated objectively in terms of noise, distortion etc. and that is what am referring to.
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13 January 2017, 01:43 | #44 |
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Not exactly. Sound is the brain's interpretation of vibrations in a physical medium measured by the ears. Color is the brain's interpretation of the frequency of photons measured by the color receptors in the retina. Sound and color don't exist physically.
This is the same as measuring sound with a sampler and displaying it as a wave form, as a bitmap, or as a bunch of numbers. The data that comes into the brain as measured by the sensory organs is just that, data, and that has to be interpreted before it means anything. No argument there. |
13 January 2017, 01:45 | #45 | |
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https://www.google.com/search?q=sound+definition
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13 January 2017, 02:02 | #46 | |
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Vibrations in a medium and the frequency of photons are physical properties, sound and color are interpretations of these. Just check out this page: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.36f02e15f94a |
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13 January 2017, 02:14 | #47 |
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If nobody's around when a tree falls in the forest, does it then not make a sound?
According to you it doesn't - according to me it does. Sorry, but I stick to the dictionary definitions of sound and color as being physics.. |
13 January 2017, 02:18 | #48 |
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13 January 2017, 02:19 | #49 |
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I guess I'll stop here or it might turn into this:
[ Show youtube player ] |
13 January 2017, 02:35 | #50 | ||
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Common definitions aren't always scientifically accurate, and they shouldn't. Saying 'Those are some mighty fine air vibration interpretations' just isn't a practical way of saying things, so we commonly call those vibrations sound, even though it's not scientifically accurate. Anyway, this is quite off-topic |
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13 January 2017, 02:36 | #51 |
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My turn to say: Wow.
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13 January 2017, 02:39 | #52 |
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13 January 2017, 05:58 | #53 |
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Wow... not sure the original point of this, but I'll chime in.
So, you're starting with Amiga 8-bit samples. That's 8-bits of information per channel. If you actually have two left and two right, you can mix them for a 9-bit result. That is all of the original information you will ever have. And sure, you can convert this to 16-bits. But you still only have 9-bits of actual information, or 54dB DNR, if you want to look at it that way. You can convert that to 24-bit or 32-bit, doesn't matter, you still only have 9-bits of information. The converted format (no point, really, in going beyond 16-bit) will make it easier to manipulate with modern tools, but it's not going to make it sound any than the 8-bit sample. Of course, converting the original digital versus playing through Paula, that ought to be an improvement. Same thing basically goes with sample-rate upconversion. The software is going to interpolate, and there's very good software for that, but your'e still going to have sound frequency limited. Not sure why you'd mix left and right channels... maybe you get a more natural sound that way. I haven't specifically played with anything like this, and after a point, all sound tweaking is more art than science. I have absolutely no idea why there's a compressor even being mentioned. The very last thing I want is to take my 8-bit or 9-bit sample and reduce its resolution any more. Maybe I'd play around with an expander, but no, never a compressor. And absolutely not one that's clipping ... that's just bad work. I have zillions of various audio plug-ins designed for various purposes. It's possible that you might find something that would make the sound more pleasing. That's of course changing the original sound -- all you can ever do is reduce the amount of information from the original sample. But again, it's the art... perhaps a DSP algorithm meant for "clarity" or some other generic function would be useful. |
13 January 2017, 06:11 | #54 |
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Creating music is an art so there are no definite rules as to how one should do it. If you think something sounds good, then go ahead with it no matter what other people say is 'correct'.
From a purely technical perspective it makes a lot of sense to use a compressor prior to applying an 8 bit quantization so you can squeeze as much detail as possible into that limited dynamic range. It is harder though to see the reason why one would apply even more dynamic compression on the audio after this quantization. One reason could be if you like the effect of the quantization noise which is not totally weird. It is one of the reasons why 8 bit audio has this 'crunchy' sound that many people like. |
13 January 2017, 07:19 | #55 |
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I don't get it either. A1200 + Delitracker's 14bit headphone mixer and the original mods already sounds better.
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13 January 2017, 08:27 | #56 | |
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Clipped audio is of course by definition "crap audio". Unless, of course, clipping is used as a deliberate effect like Prodigy does. Are you Prodigy? |
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13 January 2017, 09:16 | #57 |
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Nice flame wars in here. May I participate ?
Accuracy doesn't always mean quality. If your sound contains bad noises to start with, if you play it with max accuracy you will hear all its shortcomings, i.e. poor quality. The Amiga audio does a good job filtering these away, which means some kind of distortion, but this is nevertheless good quality. So no, it's not "bad" at all, at least not when playing mods. Of course excessive clipping damages the sound further but, like any sound change, it may be intentional by the musician. Oh, by the way... (I couldn't resist) According to quantum physics, if nobody's around when a tree falls in the forest, it both makes a sound and doesn't make it (and worse, in fact it won't really have fallen unless someone is there to see it ) |
13 January 2017, 10:09 | #58 | |
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1. Observers don't have to be conscious entities. 2. Sound isn't a physical phenomenon if you forget about the common definition. |
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13 January 2017, 14:46 | #59 |
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Let's please stop with this and stick to topic, what's left to do here, talk about the Earth being flat and Pizzagate?
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13 January 2017, 15:12 | #60 | |
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Here's the way it really works - you have two 8 bits channels on left, two on right. Each 8 bit channel also has an amplitude control (volume), 0 being off, 1 being 36.5 dB loss, and the others arranged on a logarithmic scale with regard to decibel level up to 64 (full volume). So it isn't QUITE 14 bits on each channel, and when you sum that together, you get a 15 bit number, on each of the left and right channels. A 16 bit sampler should in theory cope, but that's assuming that it has the same mid point as Paula output DACs. Even a .1% difference, you start losing some information. But 44.1KHz isn't enough sometimes - some audio can outshoot that. The Amiga has two ways of doing Audio - Paula and the CPU. Paula limits you to 28,867 samples per second playback on NTSC, a little higher on PAL (which is why a tiny minotiry of Amiga audio doesn't play on NTSC systems). So it's a completely different ball game if the sound playback uses the CPU to time things, which was used on some demos. Suddenly you are not limited to 28.867 KHz and can even output faster than the 44.1KHz of CD, as far as sampling and playback rate go. This is why you should not depend on 16 bit hardware sampling of Amiga audio. It cannot capture the entire dynamic range. It will give you 99% guaranteed, but if you want complete accuracy, then things are a lot trickier. The original demo samples usually came from vinyl or tape. Often the sources were speeded up when sampling, either to save memory space for the sample, or to capture sound at a high sample rate and play it back. Don't think all Amiga audio is limited to 28KHz 8 bit 4 channel. It wasn't and isn't. Paula was, but even then, the volume control of each channel adds more dynamic range to what you can play back. If you don't believe the above, check out the "Audio Hardware" section of the Amiga Hardware Reference Manual (any edition should do). I would love to have uploaded some WAV equivalents for Amiga users to play back... but github limits to a 25mb file size. I guess I could put a zipped wav up, or lha maybe... nope, didn't work. Zipped version is even bigger than the original wav. Sorry. Last edited by Pat the Cat; 14 January 2017 at 15:05. |
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