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Old 17 February 2019, 22:44   #61
Syntrax
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How about a kickstart specifically for 680x0 and version specifically for PPC?
It's really great to have a PPC card and then realise that there are almost no applications that really use the PPC.
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Old 18 February 2019, 09:03   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Syntrax View Post
How about a kickstart specifically for 680x0 and version specifically for PPC?
It's really great to have a PPC card and then realise that there are almost no applications that really use the PPC.

Kinda late to realise this in 2019, 22 years after the PPC cards were introduced... besides, there are actually quite a lot of software that can use the PPC.
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Old 18 February 2019, 11:26   #63
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Originally Posted by Syntrax View Post
Making it open source has no value! Directory Opus was made open source and...... were still waiting.
I think this was a bad example for your cause, since we have updates to Opus 4 after it was released open source, such as support for longer filenames and other fixes, and it has been ported to AROS, MorphOS and AmigaOS 4.

So yeah, yay for open source! Sure lots of things will never be touched by anyone but it's nice that the opportunity exists.
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Old 18 February 2019, 13:34   #64
Bruce Abbott
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Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
OK i've got one for you: IBrowse.
No idea it it is a mess, nobody will ever know. Quite some people would like to buy the necessary keyfile, but nobody is even willing g to sell it anymore - let alone publish it or - "oh no!" give the source free.
IBrowse is still in active development, and there are potential customers (like me) who would be willing to pay for it. But you think they should just open-source it and let anyone build their own version. How would that fit in with their business plan?

Anyway whether IBrowse is closed-source - or even exists at all - is irrelevant. The open-source community had over 20 years to come up with a better browser, and what did they produce? Nothing. The best 'they' could do was port a cut-down version of Netsurf that uses 5 times as much memory and is much slower.

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Oh the situation has changes there?
Last Beta release was on 2nd Nov 2018 - documented right there on their official website (no need to trawl discussion groups looking for news).

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Not so much according to Amiga.org ...
The website that was down for so long everyone gave up on it? I'm not surprised you couldn't find much discussion about IBrowse there.

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developing it in the open it would probably have helped to maintain a readable und understandable code.
You haven't seen the code, so you cannot possibly know that.

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(bad code and undocumented projects simply won't survive long)
Nonsense. There are over 100 million projects on Github, and a large number are badly coded and documented - some even have nothing in them!

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Sorry Bruce, but that is ... You know what.
What???
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Old 18 February 2019, 20:22   #65
nogginthenog
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Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott View Post
Last Beta release was on 2nd Nov 2018 - documented right there on their official website
FYI the latest IBrowse beta was released on 14 Feb 2019.
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Old 19 February 2019, 01:09   #66
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Originally Posted by jayminer View Post
I think this was a bad example for your cause, since we have updates to Opus 4 after it was released open source, such as support for longer filenames and other fixes, and it has been ported to AROS, MorphOS and AmigaOS 4.

So yeah, yay for open source! Sure lots of things will never be touched by anyone but it's nice that the opportunity exists.
In any case it is better to have sources open than that the sources vanish because developers drop amiga
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Old 19 February 2019, 04:06   #67
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@ Bruce Abbott

Quote:
Quote:
developing it in the open it would probably have helped to maintain a readable und understandable code.
You haven't seen the code, so you cannot possibly know that.
Really? So why did you claim the opposite earlier in this thread?
Your words:
Quote:
Aweb was open-sourced, and man what a mess! I wouldn't know where to begin trying to fix it.
And why are you counting dead projects? What for?
Are you counting dead closed source projects as well? No?

Quote:
Quote:
(bad code and undocumented projects simply won't survive long)
Nonsense. There are over 100 million projects on Github, and a large number are badly coded and documented - some even have nothing in them!
Exactly my point. These projects are not.

Quote:
Quote:
Sorry Bruce, but that is ... You know what.
What???
You still know what. No matter how many question marks you put there.
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Old 19 February 2019, 11:33   #68
Bruce Abbott
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Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
And why are you counting dead projects?
'Dead' projects? What's your criteria for 'dead'?

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You still know what. No matter how many question marks you put there.
Sorry. I must be thick but no, I don't (I can only imagine it's something derogatory that you can't put in writing...).


Quote:
Originally Posted by nogginthenog
FYI the latest IBrowse beta was released on 14 Feb 2019.
Even better news!
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Old 19 February 2019, 12:09   #69
kolla
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The open-source community had over 20 years to come up with a better browser, and what did they produce? Nothing.
Nothing? Developers left Amiga behind, as it is a dead end. Old Amiga developers moved to many open source projects, including browsers - I know several who are paid Firefox developers, and others who work for Google on Chrome. Virtually nobody wants to develop for Amiga, open source or not.
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Old 20 February 2019, 11:58   #70
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Virtually nobody wants to develop for Amiga, open source or not.
I know quite a few people will disagree with this comment, but that's because it's such an awful system to code on.
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Old 20 February 2019, 15:08   #71
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Yup, having to use C in 2019 for 'fun' makes me lose the will to live.

...not to mention no decent sourcelevel debugging, systems that will crash on a minor bug, any form of testing is a pain, etc.
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Old 21 February 2019, 11:32   #72
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You are aware of bebbo's gcc 6.x cross-compiler? It also has a remote debugger that seems to work.

I am hoping some day there is a 'go' port as well. I believe it needs some porting effort on the 'standard library'?

Yes I think C really sucks badly. Way too many ways to make flaky code, especially on Amiga OS without any sort of memory protection.

Last edited by gregthecanuck; 21 February 2019 at 11:38.
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Old 21 February 2019, 19:10   #73
Gorf
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Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
Yup, having to use C in 2019 for 'fun' makes me lose the will to live.

You don't have to use C - you can always use assembler instead

But there are a lot of other languages available - and have been for a long time.
If you are looking for something more modern:
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?...light=nim-lang

hope this gets more attention, as Nim is a wonderful (and fast) language.
https://nim-lang.org
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Old 26 February 2019, 00:12   #74
Bruce Abbott
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Nothing? Developers left Amiga behind, as it is a dead end... Virtually nobody wants to develop for Amiga, open source or not.
And there are virtually no serious Amiga users either (according to some) which is why the 'open-source' model isn't working for us. But if popularity is the criteria, who is it working for?

Not Firefox apparently, since it has dwindled to only 11% of the desktop market share.

Quote:
I know several who are paid Firefox developers, and others who work for Google on Chrome.
Or for Chrome either apparently, otherwise why would they have to pay people to work on it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregthecanuck
Yes I think C really sucks badly. Way too many ways to make flaky code, especially on Amiga OS without any sort of memory protection.
"With great power comes great responsibility". I mostly code in assembler, where there is nothing to stop you from making flaky code. Yet I very rarely make a mistake that corrupts memory or crashes the machine. And when it does happen I just hit reset and it's back up in 20 seconds (would never do that on a PC of course - too much risk of corrupting the hard drive, and too slow rebooting).

According to Stack Overflow, the most 'loved' languages are Rust, Kotlin (who?), Python and TypeScript. C++ comes in a distant 22nd, with only 47% of respondents 'loving' it. On the other end of the scale, C++ is 'dreaded' by 53%, C by 63%, and Assembly by 71%. Yet even assembly language is less feared than VB.NET at 81% and Visual Basic 6 at 90%!

If I was forced to program PC applications in assembler I would be 'dreading' it too, but the Amiga is not a PC. C and ASM are the Amiga's 'native' languages, and there is plenty of documentation and example code to guide you.

Most of today's popular languages are only 'loved' because of the platform-specific frameworks they use. But I recently wrote a PC application in C using only the core Windows API, and it was just like coding an Amiga application. The only problem I had was getting documentation for such 'bare metal' programming.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hewitson
I know quite a few people will disagree with this comment, but that's because it's such an awful system to code on.
Yep. I spend an average of 3-5 hours a day coding on my Amiga (in assembler no less), and hate every minute of it.

I spent most of the last 20 years programming microcontrollers which have no OS and only few kilobytes or memory. On these platforms the power and flexibility of assembly greatly outweighs the 'fear factor', C often struggles, and higher level languages are impossible. Debugging on the target machine is also next to impossible, and simulators (where available) are not accurate. In comparison to that, coding on the Amiga is a dream!
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Old 26 February 2019, 00:22   #75
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to my recollection aweb was never anything much to begin with. but at least people have tried to improve it, and its still pretty obvious where to get the latest version unless im severly mistaken.

sopus magellan and dopus 4 has also received some attendance. as well as scalos, it and opus4 being part of aros contribs and being actively maintained there (if not necessarily developed). the other very good example is pfs3 maintained by toni and piru, which source im just looking through atm.
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Old 26 February 2019, 09:20   #76
kolla
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PeterK's icon.library is also open source, but noone ever would use that, right?
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Old 26 February 2019, 09:22   #77
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Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott View Post
Yep. I spend an average of 3-5 hours a day coding on my Amiga (in assembler no less), and hate every minute of it.
So where can I buy your awesome programs?
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Old 27 February 2019, 03:52   #78
Bruce Abbott
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So where can I buy your awesome programs?
As you might have guessed from the fact that I am still coding it, the program I am working on isn't finished yet. I was going to put it on Aminet a little while ago, but I decided to make it a bit more like a 'professional' commercial release - partly as a coding exercise and partly because I figured nobody would be interested in improving the source (20k lines of pure 68k asm).

But you have got me thinking - perhaps when it's finished I should sell it! Or should I just open-source it in it's current (unfinished) state? Which strategy do you think will produce the best result?
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Old 27 February 2019, 03:57   #79
kolla
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AmigaOS 3.1.4 successor wishlist

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Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott View Post

But you have got me thinking - perhaps when it's finished I should sell it! Or should I just open-source it in it's current (unfinished) state? Which strategy do you think will produce the best result?

Why not both? Lay the sources open for anyone to contribute (using github or whatever you chose), keep developing yourself (comitting changes publicly), and sell the finished product (compiled binaries) when it’s ready.
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Old 28 February 2019, 22:49   #80
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I have another wish. Why do I still need to revert to hacks (HamWB, etc) to get 256+ colours? Why can't I use Screenmode and select 256, ham6 and ham8 colours?
Sure, that may be slow, but thats the users choice.

Mapping 24Bit color to Amiga 256000 (HAM8) is something that an amiga library can do.
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