Was the C64 good or bad for the games industry?

[Megalomaniac]

For clarity, I didn't have a C64 back in the day, wonder if I would have enjoyed it more than a Spectrum as a nine-year-old, but longer-term think that the Spectrum was a better starting point. I do however have a C64 now, and do enjoy it. The Spectrum may have been GOOD at more things, but maybe the C64 was GREAT at more things.

There's no disputing that, for most types of 2D action games of the 8-bit era, the C64 is the most capable. Ultrasmooth 50fps scrolling, a decent though fixed palette, multiple sprites, and comfortably the best sound chip of any pre-Amiga home computer. For scrolling platformers and shoot 'em ups, no other 8-bit can really compete.

However, there's no question that the C64's slow processor compared to the Z80 did limit what it could do. For team sports it struggled, being unable to use sprites for all players unless the view is really close. For 3D it was pretty hopeless, though Mercenary and Space Rogue do more than you'd think was possible. When it did get an isometric arcade adventure it was usually noticeably slower than on the Z80s, though Head Over Heels comes to mind as a good one.

The issue this seems to have caused is that the C64 provided less truly original, genre-defining creations than most other systems. Bruce Lee, Creatures, Impossible Mission, Lode Runner are all essentially platformers; Paradroid, Wizball, Uridium, Hunter's Moon all essentially shooters. The exception are perhaps Electronic Arts did some wonderfully original and diverse stuff (Archon, Wasteland, Project Firestart, Lords of Conquest) - perhaps because they were American and didn't have the Z80 development option. All too often, the original and innovative C64 games got squeezed out by fast but brainless and unoriginal scrolling shooters, whereas I'd argue that most big selling Spectrum games (other than a few conversions which sold on the name, as on any system) sold on the gameplay rather than the audiovisuals. Making some styles of games was that bit too easy, and making other styles of games was that bit too hard.

Worldwide, the C64 sold 12.5m-17.5m units - that probably puts it ahead of the Spectrum, Atari 8-bit line, Amstrad CPC, BBC / Electron and Apple II series (discounting the GS, which was 16-bit) combined, even before you consider the C128, which I think was more business than home. So, you'd expect ex-C64 guys to be the most successful programmers in the later eras. However, it doesn't feel like many great programmers or designers started on the C64, or that many of the guys behind great C64 games had that much success later. In terms of the Amiga, we had great Amiga games from Sensible, Magnetic Fields, maybe Andy Braybrook, but I can't think of many more great games from ex-C64 developers- if anything the BBC / Electron gave us the programmers behind more great games (Frontier, F1GP, Stunt Car Racer, Virus, The Sentinel, Wing Commander, Exile, Shadow of the Beast (much as I'm not a fan of it as a game)) despite selling a tiny percentage as many units.

So, was the C64 just too much narrowly-focused power too soon? Did its lack of versatility limit what developers could create, and what its owners were exposed to?

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by Megalomaniac

the C64 provided less truly original, genre-defining creations than most other systems.

Thread: DOA

[AestheticDebris]

All the 8 bits offered something a bit different, all of them attracted programmers who came up with some great games. And all of them were hideously limited in one way or another.

[roondar]

Originally Posted by dreadnought

Thread: DOA

Heh, I agree. I'm not even going to comment any further

[TCD]

Originally Posted by dreadnought

Thread: DOA

[CCCP alert]

Only a Commodore 64 expert can answer this question, there were only 3 worth a crap on YT and all 3 have closed YT video production/ponding to comments now.

FWIW ALL 8bit consoles and computers were a compromise, the C64 is the best and least limiting compromise IMO.YMMV

[Megalomaniac]

Maybe I've misjudged the mood here, it wasn't intended as an attack on the C64, more a general question about the longer term impact of the system.

Which other games that I didn't mention would people recommend to show off the versatility of the C64? Not platformers or shooters, ideally originating on the C64, with as much originality and innovation as possible? Or, which other games show what it can do in the genres it theoretically struggles in (3D and isometric stuff especially?)

It's true that all 8-bits were a compromise, AestheticDebris puts it quite well. In an ideal world there would have been something combining the C64's custom chips with the Z80 processor. The Amstrad CPC was almost the best of both worlds, but once you delved a bit deeper some limitations became apparent - though a lot of French games and some recent homebrew stuff show what it could do when fully let off the leash. The Enterprise might've been the most powerful of the original era 8-bits, but its late launch against established systems stopped it really being pushed by commercial coders.

[Adropac2]

I think it's a given that some people will always have a bias towards their machine and that's just what it is but it does sometime cloud judgement. I had a C64 but I also knew someone with a Spectrum and while I was glad of my C64, the Spectrum did things differently I noticed that I enjoyed my time playing it. Both had a tremendous presences in their games and both had great games

The thing I liked most was that every 8bit was different of course and so each had a different feel regards to the atmosphere of the games. And that's why it's so special to be able to play any one of these systems and their games so easily these days on real hardware, emulation or fpga

I would conclude that the C64 with it's incredibly diverse variety of games was overall the one to have if you could only have the one but then you'd miss out on so many great games for other systems so it's good we don't have to choose these days

[TCD]

Originally Posted by Megalomaniac

Maybe I've misjudged the mood here, it wasn't intended as an attack on the C64, more a general question about the longer term impact of the system.

The 'longer term impact' of any system is that it created people that were and are passionate about that system. The C64 groups and forums are way bigger than the Amiga groups for that reason. I'm personally not too fond of the ZX Spectrum, but I'd never question if that system was good for gaming overall. It's really hard to see this thread as anything else than extremely biased.

[CCCP alert]

My comments really relate to the hardware only. There's nothing wrong with preferring the ownership experience of X over Y. It's worth remembering none of these 1982-1984 micros or consoles were remotely 8bit arcade levels of sophistication at any price.

[Dunny]

Gosh I am so looking forward to 200 pages of people comparing 8 bit system prices from magazine adverts. Bring it.

[Pyromania]

C64 seemed boring to me once I learned about Amiga. I no longer wanted mine.

[Cris1997XX]

Hell yeah, another 250-long thread filled with useless arguing and baseless sources? Bring it on guys

[Galahad/FLT]

I was never into the C64, but its continued presence today for games and demo scene activities kinda shows just how impactful the c64 was and still is.

If I was given the choice between the BBC I had and picking any other 8bit machine, the C64 would have been the one I wanted.

Yes, for some very game types like Elite it wasn't best suited, but it had the hardware to more than make up for it in all other areas.

I like discussion threads, but the OP is kinda coming off this wrong, you're never going to appreciate another machine if it was never much part of your gaming history, but it sold in ridiculous numbers and is still going today.

I think that answers your question.

[DisasterIncarna]

Originally Posted by Megalomaniac

Maybe I've misjudged the mood here, it wasn't intended as an attack on the C64, more a general question about the longer term impact of the system.

I had a C16, C64 and several Amigas, and while i still use/prefer the Amiga more, the C64 gets far more good stuff released for it than the Amiga, just looking at itch.io can show that weird trend, so if people are still making stuff for the C64 and a lot of it is good stuff I would say its had 1 heck of an impact at the time and over time.

[Dunny]

The C64 was f*cking awesome. The Spectrum was f*cking awesome. The Atari 8 bit was f*cking awesome. The 2600 was f*cking awesome. Nintendo Game & Watch were f*cking awesome.

We had goddamn video games in our homes guys. How bloody awesome was that?

[TEG]

Originally Posted by Dunny

The C64 was f*cking awesome. The Spectrum was f*cking awesome. The Atari 8 bit was f*cking awesome. The 2600 was f*cking awesome. Nintendo Game & Watch were f*cking awesome.

but one rectification : The C64 was f*cking awesome. The Spectrum was f*cking awesome. The Atari 8 bit was f*cking awesome. The 2600 was f*cking awesome. Nintendo Game & Watch were f*cking awesome.


Never had feeling for the Atari 8 bits line.

[pandy71]

Originally Posted by Megalomaniac

However, there's no question that the C64's slow processor compared to the Z80 did limit what it could do. For team sports it struggled, being unable to use sprites for all players unless the view is really close. For 3D it was pretty hopeless, though Mercenary and Space Rogue do more than you'd think was possible. When it did get an isometric arcade adventure it was usually noticeably slower than on the Z80s, though Head Over Heels comes to mind as a good one.

http://www.ffd2.com/fridge/speccy/score

FYI i never owned C64 and as such not being emotionally attach to it.

[TheLurker]

From a US perspective, yeah it was good because it’s basically all there was after Atari and TI were beaten into submission.

It also had the good fortune of coming out right when the crash happened here. For that little moment in time, everyone thought the home computer was going to be the platform for gaming and the 64 was the king!

Then came the NES.

For the record, I was an Atari guy. My first computer was a 400, then 800XL. My cousin had a C64. Favorite game we played was Summer Games. Favorite Atari game was Star Raiders.

[TCD]

Originally Posted by TEG

Never had feeling for the Atari 8 bits line.

Heh, I didn't know or had any urge to check out the machine either until a few months ago. All I can say you should give it a try and you might be surprised