14 January 2019, 22:30 | #121 |
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Since we're on the subject of Paula/AY and samples, I have to ask:
Is it true that AY (the ST sound chip, nothing else) samples sound so fuzzy and hissy because they're actually only 4-bit (because of the 0-15 volume levels on said chip)? That just goes to show that whilst the AY can play samples, it was not really designed for them. I've heard similar hiss from POKEY samples, and I'm not sure, but doesn't the SID have 4-bit volume control? Correct me if I'm wrong. |
14 January 2019, 22:35 | #122 |
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This could be one reason yes. But there's multiple ways to play back samples, not all of them require changing the volume. It's also possible to use a square wave to play back samples (rapidly switching it on/off as needed) or use anything else that causes a 'click' (the famous old style SID samples made use of a 'bug' in the SID that caused an audible click when doing certain operations - Commodore fixed the bug in the newer SID chips and then those samples didn't work properly anymore). There's even a C64 sample method that uses the VIC-II to create the pulses needed IIRC. And I've even seen an Amiga example using the composite video output as an additional sample channel.
(I'd call the volume changing AM and the pulse changing FM, but this is probably just me making stuff up that sounds like it could be right :P) I'm honestly not sure how the higher quality SID sample techniques work, though. Would be interesting to find out. |
14 January 2019, 23:02 | #123 | |
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Quote:
https://livet.se/mahoney/c64-files/M...fvesson_v2.pdf |
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15 January 2019, 02:43 | #124 |
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Here are some more examples of my Atari STE YM + DMA tracker that frank_b linked to: https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...PpptRadNFksUPV
It's 7 channels - the 3 YM channels, plus 4 channel 25kHz stereo multiplexed into 2 channels at 50kHz, meaning each of the 4 channels can occupy the full 8-bit amplitude rather than having to be shifted and combined. 3 of the sample channels are software-synth, based on the Konami SCC/PC Engine soundchips (there's a PDF of the manual in the link which explains things in more detail). One of the problems with the STE is that the audio output stage isn't totally clean (almost all STEs suffer from CPU/bus whine on the left audio channel), and the volume of the YM and DMA chips aren't balanced (the Falcon cures both these issues and also has its own phenomenal sound capabilities). In my opinion the Amiga (with the low-pass filter disabled) always sounds cleaner for sample playback when playing the same samples. I love both computers and the styles of music they're each suited to, of course |
15 January 2019, 11:21 | #125 |
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I don't think anyone here will doubt that out of Atari ST(e), Amiga and Atari Falcon the Falcon is going to have the best sound. Commodore really ought to have included that DSP Dave Haynie wanted to add in the A3000+ (or at the very least ought to have offered a 16 bit version of Paula).
Ah well, I'm happy with what we have for most of these platforms. I kinda miss the times when every platform had its own 'sound'. Even though that is silly and sentimental of me to do |
15 January 2019, 16:24 | #126 | |
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The same could be said for the graphics on the various home computers that came out in the 1980s that didn't 100% conform to the IBM PC standard, it was fun having platforms with their own distinct graphics and sound systems. I remember having an argument in my college classroom against a die-hard PC nut (this was in the early 1990s) and defending the Amiga like a real zealot, and all the others did was scoff at, say, the price of the A4000 or how PCs did it better and cheaper. But I stood my ground. I only gave in to the PC craze in 1995 because Commodore had gone bust (thus, no more progress) and simply because PC games like Doom were promising a bright future (which they delivered: thankyouverymuch, FPS shooters of the late 1990s!) I have moaned about the AY and SID, and praised Paula and POKEY, but that's a residue of the old schoolyard fights that most of us had over our systems, and the rivalries that remain to this day, despite emulation. I myself only met one other A8 user who I was happy to share games with, out of the entire school. |
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15 January 2019, 20:52 | #127 | |
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Add to this sampling irregularity (phase error a.k.a. severe jitter). So even HQ PCM reproduction is affected (this is easily audible, also software dependence produce some audible tones i assume associated to interrupts). PCM playback on non DMA, non PCM architecture machines is always limited. Last edited by pandy71; 16 January 2019 at 13:56. Reason: clarification - evelope added |
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15 January 2019, 21:10 | #128 |
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OK, I'm confused now. What is the shorthand name for the ST sound chip? I gather I've been using the wrong name for years, now.
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15 January 2019, 21:12 | #129 |
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15 January 2019, 23:51 | #130 |
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16 January 2019, 01:00 | #131 |
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16 January 2019, 12:35 | #132 |
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16 January 2019, 13:46 | #133 | |
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Comparing with help of multiplatform games is is usually bad idea as in those times (but also today) game quality is limited by worst, common denominator platform i.e. 80's/90's by Atari ST/IBM PC (i.e. no HW acceleration offloading main CPU, architecture limitations etc.) |
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26 January 2019, 13:10 | #134 | |
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From what i learned so is the DMA of the STE only one channel... and then i mean "channel" as in as many different samples the sound system can play at the same time... like the Paula wich is a 4 channel soundchip and thus can play 4 different samples at the same time. The STE only play one sample at the same time but the sample can be in stereo format, so to play 4-channel mods on an STE a lot of CPU power is needed just like on an ST... but you get better soundquality on the STE. |
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26 January 2019, 13:37 | #135 |
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So basically the same sound that a Speccy 128k produces. Charming in its own way for sure, I like a lot of Speccy tunes, but if I'd have upgraded from a Speccy to an ST to find it had exactly the same sound I would have been disappointed to say the least.
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26 January 2019, 17:14 | #136 |
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My Amiga-despising friend did just that.
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27 January 2019, 01:17 | #137 | |
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Quote:
"The General Instrument (later Microchip) AY-3-8910 and Yamaha YM2149F are very similar sound ICs. The YM2149F is essentally a Yamaha-branded AY-3-8910 compatible made under license." |
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27 January 2019, 07:48 | #138 | ||
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To my ears at least the YM2149 sounds a little smoother than the AY, even when playing identical music (I tested both chips in my Aquarius Micro-expander, but have settled on the YM2149 because it sounds better). Quote:
I did some experiments using one of the AY-3-8910's I/O ports connected to an 8 bit D/A converter (initially just a resistor network like the Covox Speech Thing). Getting a stable playback frequency was tricky because the Aquarius has no interrupts or high frequency timer, and the CH376 USB chip is not buffered internally so I had to implement a software buffer with cycle-accurate timing. [ Show youtube player ] Last edited by Bruce Abbott; 27 January 2019 at 08:01. |
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29 January 2019, 20:44 | #139 | ||
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Quote:
Main difference is insufficient bit resolution (4 or 5) to cover wide dynamics range. Quote:
At some point decent results can be achieved. http://www.sonicillusions.co.uk/discrete_dac.htm In fact i'm quite curious how AY sounds if supersonic noise or square wave is programmed and envelope is used. |
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01 February 2019, 08:32 | #140 | |
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Now I don't know if he's *correct* or not, but that's what I got from what he said. |
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