Is Practicing C coding on real Amiga 1200 or 500+ hardware a good idea?

[kamelito]

@Thor
I would recommend using Raylib (raylib.com) it is easier than SDL and also cross platform. On Windows you’ve a ready to use envt via Notepad++, so just one download and you’re Ready to go.

[Twiggy]

@modrobert

That's made me jazzed to attempt such madness. What editor would you recommend?

[Rango]

Thank you everyone for great input. I really don't know how things work yet so don't think my ideas are good ideas. They are only inquires based on how i think things work which could be completely wrong on my part lol.

[jotd]

modrobert this PC hate is sooo 1990s... Use the most adapted tools at your disposal on whatever platform to work fast and reach your goal (and test on real hardware to check if performance is all right). That's the idea.

[clebin]

I can recommend Cubic IDE on the Amiga. The editor felt surprisingly modern to me compared with other Amiga stuff, and is quite configurable. I was able to change the keycap to match the Mac editors I'm used to which helped immeasurably.

Compiling and running with SAS/C is pretty convenient, the only bugbear being that if your code is crashing, you have to reboot and reopen the IDE. I didn't code on a real Amiga, but UAE which meant I could keep my source code on a shared folder and manage it with Git.

I'm not saying that this is *best* solution, but for me, coding on AmigaOS itself was part of the experience and I was willing to accept the compromises. I was surprised how good it was to be honest.

I'm trying to pick the project up again and I'm going to try bebbo's cross-compiler for comparison. Ultimately, it's your hobby, no-one else's, so don't feel like any choice is 'wrong'.

[gimbal]

Originally Posted by Rango

Thanks guys for feedback. My goal is to learn C but with positive reinforcement that i see the results so it can push me fruther with writing.
Originally i was going to learn python as first language but this article convinced me otherwise. And i think this guy is completely right. https://www.evanmiller.org/you-cant-dig-upwards.html

I don't, that article is written with a 90's mindset. There is nothing wrong with learning programming by easing your way into it with a high level programming language such as Python, it is already difficult enough to learn the complexities of programming paradigms and to create the right mindset without having to worry about extremely low level things such as memory management. First learn how to walk before you run.

There is also nothing wrong with starting with C if the end goal is to use C for that matter. The only wrong thing is to say "don't learn language X". Learning any serious programming language/platform is a leg up and one of many right choices to make.

[modrobert]

Originally Posted by deimos

I don’t get why you feel the need to run real hardware to do this.

I do think that learning C on the Amiga is a good idea, and maybe a bit of assembly to really cement how things really work, but setting up WinUAE and VBCC with a good editor that understands your code will be so much more efficient for a tonne of reasons.

I'm not against emulators at all, WinUAE is great, it's how most people these days get their Amiga fix. Still, that doesn't prevent you from actually developing within the Amiga emulation session as opposed to cross compile from windoze.

Originally Posted by twiggy

@modrobert

That's made me jazzed to attempt such madness. What editor would you recommend?

For programming C I use the SAS/C included 'se' editor (hint; my previous post had a links you can click), it has everything you need pretty much including impressive debugger, well, until your wild horse (the Amiga, free as in "freedom") gives you the "guru", it's part of the experience. On the upside you can actually edit the RAM in real time, no boundaries, no memory protection or ASLR ruining your fun.

Originally Posted by Rango

Thank you everyone for great input. I really don't know how things work yet so don't think my ideas are good ideas. They are only inquires based on how i think things work which could be completely wrong on my part lol.

You are welcome. If you go the Amiga route there is no turning back, you will be a professional where your future code just oozes quality, it's inevitable.

Originally Posted by jotd

modrobert this PC hate is sooo 1990s... Use the most adapted tools at your disposal on whatever platform to work fast and reach your goal (and test on real hardware to check if performance is all right). That's the idea.

Excuse me? This is the English Amiga Board, not some yammer (or worse, FB) group discussing PC and bloated M$ products.

I like the whole experience; fixing with Amiga hardware, programming with constraints which adds to the challenge. It's not about doing things effectively, that's sounds like "work" to me. No, the Amiga is about doing things in style and having fun. Why does it feel so good whenever you do something on the Amiga, or have a project related to it? I'll leave you with that thought.

Originally Posted by clebin

I can recommend Cubic IDE on the Amiga. The editor felt surprisingly modern to me compared with other Amiga stuff, and is quite configurable. I was able to change the keycap to match the Mac editors I'm used to which helped immeasurably.

Compiling and running with SAS/C is pretty convenient, the only bugbear being that if your code is crashing, you have to reboot and reopen the IDE. I didn't code on a real Amiga, but UAE which meant I could keep my source code on a shared folder and manage it with Git.

I'm not saying that this is *best* solution, but for me, coding on AmigaOS itself was part of the experience and I was willing to accept the compromises. I was surprised how good it was to be honest.

I'm trying to pick the project up again and I'm going to try bebbo's cross-compiler for comparison. Ultimately, it's your hobby, no-one else's, so don't feel like any choice is 'wrong'.

Helpful, and thanks for the pointers. I kind of like 'se', the native SAS/C editor when programming, but can also add JanoEditor to the mix.

[jotd]

I agree with "bloated M$ products". But vasm, WinUAE and Notepad++/make aren't bloated M$ product.

For instance I'm not sure that you're replying to this forum using your amiga.

But you're right, everyone has the right to do anything as long it doesn't bother others. One could add "why are you coding for amiga at all, or in C, or whatever".

Do it all amiga if you like, I can understand that. Just be aware that a modern cross 68k C compiler like gcc generate excellent code and have much better warning diagnostics, which speed up development. For instance C++ was just not possible with old C++ compilers on the miggy (not even talking about the "cross" aspect and notepad++ or devC++ or even eclipse or any modern IDE...)

[deimos]

Do any of the “native” Amiga C compilers such as SAS/C support C99?

[modrobert]

Originally Posted by jotd

I agree with "bloated M$ products". But vasm, WinUAE and Notepad++/make aren't bloated M$ product.

Agreed, I like WinUAE so much it's part of the reason I have a VM running Windows under Linux. It's a masterpiece in reverse engineering and useful Amiga knowledge.

For instance I'm not sure that you're replying to this forum using your amiga.

You got me this time, using Linux at the moment, but there is a ~10% chance I actually use iBrowse on the A1200 to access this forum.

[Samurai_Crow]

Originally Posted by deimos

Do any of the “native” Amiga C compilers such as SAS/C support C99?

VBCC does but not completely.

[Rango]

Originally Posted by modrobert

You are welcome. If you go the Amiga route there is no turning back, you will be a professional where your future code just oozes quality, it's inevitable.

I learned how to drive a car on a stick shift as my father had toyota camry station wagon 5 spd so i can appreciate and understand what he means. Right after for a year i had 5spd car with turbo in it.
I don't drive stick shift now but i can get in one now and shift gears just like back in the days. It's like ridding a bike. You never forget it. The clutch sensitivity could be slight different in each car but that's the only difference one would need to get use to. I like this article a lot and what he says makes perfect sense.

I want to be able to get into any rabbit hole there is and navigate threw it.
I'm just hoping i'm not too dumb to understand coding itself so i actually picked best possible book there is too. Question now will be can i grasp it even with best book available. I guess i'll see.

[Krashan]

Originally Posted by jotd

For instance C++ was just not possible with old C++ compilers on the miggy

This is false. Native GCC 2.95.3 compiles C++ and I have written a few small apps with it on Amiga 1200. Of course not current C++ standard, but anyway.

[bebbo]

Originally Posted by Krashan

This is false. Native GCC 2.95.3 compiles C++ and I have written a few small apps with it on Amiga 1200. Of course not current C++ standard, but anyway.

That's correct, gcc 2.95.3 supports C++ which is (almost?) c++98
The more modern gcc 6.5 supports c++14 and some features of c++17


Beside the c++ version the exception handling is different:
gcc 2.95.3 is using sjlj, gcc 6.5 is using seh exception handling.
sjlj means "setjump, longjump" and has a penalty since the jump buffer has to be filled even if no exception is thrown.
seh mean "structured exception handling" where all info is stored to determine all needed info when an exception is thrown, so no penalty.

[MartinW]

Originally Posted by modrobert

You are coding on silent hardware (eg. A1200 without fan)

Oh how I wish this were true! Sadly, my A1000 (GBA, not original) uses it's original power supply that is louder than my Windows PC which is extremely quiet indeed even with i7 and GTX1080 graphics.

I have got a C dev setup on my GBA but unfortunately it's more comfortable to cross compile from Windows to Win-UAE for the bulk of the time and just test / debug on the real thing mostly down to the fact that it's quiet and I can do it in the living room instead of being out of the way in the office.

If I had either an A600 with a Vampire (I don't) or an A1200 with some form of RTG (way too expensive), basically a classic amiga with a reasonable screen size and no fan then I'd use the real hardware because it would be nice to use it a lot more.

I guess I might have a crack at using a real Amiga setup under Win-UAE. At least that get's round the expensive cost of a silent RTG setup but I'm not THAT convinced of the point in that really.