21 November 2017, 10:47 | #61 | ||
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21 November 2017, 11:22 | #62 | |
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21 November 2017, 18:03 | #63 |
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Biscuit - For the current league, the first 6 games had an average of 20 players playing. From Benefactor, the average was 14 per round - until the final two games, which the average was back to 20 players. So I can see why a 20 Tier system would help, and would encourage more than 16 to join. Newbies might not know about a bonus system, and might think their score would only get 1 point, so no point posting it.
Yes I still am not convinced, but there is time left to work things out. This thread is due to run for two weeks, so lots of time left to go. Its great that this thread is 4 pages in size after only 3 days. |
21 November 2017, 20:24 | #64 | |
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22 November 2017, 09:32 | #65 |
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@lifeschool: I think you misunderstand Biscuit's "Tier 20"-system. It doesn't mean that it will give different points to 20 participants. There will be a couple of same scores in the middle and bottom part of the table. No one will be below 5 points. Biscuit's system works just as well for 6 people as it does for 40 people taking part.
A catchy name for this system would be "Super 5" because the first 5 places are fixed and everyone gets a minimum of 5 points. @Biscuit: The bonus points for places 6th+ will be calculated proportionally to the current 5th place's score, right? |
22 November 2017, 10:42 | #66 | |
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I personally believe the only thing we know for sure is that having a fixed number of points for (at least the top) positions provides transparency and simplicity to encourage engagement. Complexity will likely just put off casual gamers. 1st place should always win the same amount of points. The argument that your odds of a higher score diminish as more people join a round is mathematically accurate but it's not 'fair' in that if I'm good at Sensible Soccer and win the round, I get less points than another competitor who is good at Turrican II and wins that round. It suggests it's right to reward players who are best at the most popular games. Take the Premiership football league again. If the size of the league shrank in number, would you promote it's growth by lowering the number of points for a win...or would that actually kill it off? And if it grew, would you increase the number of points for a win to make it somehow more beneficial to lower position clubs? I'm not sure it follows. |
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22 November 2017, 11:22 | #67 |
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Correct, transparency and simplicity is key!
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22 November 2017, 13:38 | #68 | |||
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Missed this earlier:
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That's another plus for Biscuit's system, its 1st place score never needs to change in order to reward every single player fairly. Quote:
Biscuit's 5 points minimum are also just an illusion but there's the advantage that 1st place would still always get 20 points which keeps everything simple, transparent and consistent. |
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22 November 2017, 14:37 | #69 | |
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Yes. I would prefer to use a system where the points on offer each round are the same. For me, the best part of the TIER/Super 5 system is that if the scores are very close then it's possible that everyone from 5th place and lower can get 12 points. But they only get those points by playing well. If they advance into the fixed points at the top they continue to get good rewards for their effort but the amount of points available for each player in every round is always the same. |
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22 November 2017, 16:14 | #70 |
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I was curious to see how the scores come out for different types of results so I ran the numbers for a few more rounds. The most interesting is Benefactor which shows all of these point systems can benefit and hinder different groups of players. I didn't compare the bonus points idea because it would take too long for me to do.
I’ll leave them here and not go on about it anymore. |
22 November 2017, 16:36 | #71 |
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Looks good. I don't think anyone would complain about his points in the Super 5-system. The winners still get rewarded well but will be less uncatchable now.
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22 November 2017, 17:25 | #72 | |||
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Biscuit - Interesting results, and its clear that the current system does have advantages under certain scenarios, but not compared to the overall spread of the other systems. Although its not hard to factor in the bonus systems: Benefactor = 11 players = 11 points (1 point), 0 points (12+), 0 points (16+) Blocky Skies = 20 players = 20 points (1 point), 9 points (12+), 5 points (16+) Turrican 2 = 14 players = 14 points (1 point), 3 points (12+), 0 points (16+) Apidya = 25 players = 25 points (1 point), 13 points (12+), 10 points (16+) If we are saying the 1 point bonus idea is not going to work, then this leaves the Dynamic system based on 12 (to catch more players) or 16. If would be worth factoring all of this IF the whole season was worked out, and we can see the results of the systems. Last edited by lifeschool; 22 November 2017 at 17:36. |
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23 November 2017, 08:08 | #73 | |
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It's a kind of personal point because I started as a casual gamer and became a core gamer. From my experience I can tell you that, as a casual gamer, I found any rule complexity stopped me entering the core of the competition. And when I say about holding back, people aren't holding back scores so much as effort. As a core gamer I became slightly tactical about what I was doing and my point scoring. I started to invest in proportion to the points at stake (think double rounds for instance). But it is only my experience. Others may differ. |
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23 November 2017, 08:38 | #74 | |||
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The only thing I don't like about the bonus points idea is that can push maximum points per round above 20, effectively changing what's been in place since the comp began (I think.. It's always been 20 for 1st right?). So like John said elsewhere it would destroy previous records/stats.
If we were willing to totally overhaul points awarded for first, why not just change to a 100 player fixed system and be done with it (which I am not endorsing btw ) Quote:
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It might even be more of a deterrent then a 25 player round with 10 players sitting on 1 point.. because at least with a fixed system as a new player, you look at the leaderboard and know exactly what the points represent, and exactly what you need to do to improve, rather then wondering why your on the same league points as somebody with a lower score Quote:
I'm still preferring fixed 16, but Biscuit's system is in very close second |
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23 November 2017, 08:45 | #75 |
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23 November 2017, 08:48 | #76 | |
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The only system proposed that would address this issue is a dynamic score system. |
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23 November 2017, 09:11 | #77 | ||
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So what that means is that statistics have already been somewhat destroyed.. Well I guess previous records can be amended based on percentage of total points available for that season Quote:
EDIT: Right I've said some silly things in this thread so prepare for possibly another; Fixed system based on 30 maximum points. (20 max doesn't matter so much anymore does it?) Once-off bonus points for only new players to a season, depending on which round is entered. round 2 - 1 bonus point, round 3 - 2 points and so on. Yes the bonus points are low, but it's better then nothing, and doesn't appear to have other issues mentioned. Either that or same thing with 16 fixed. Or Biscuit's suggestion. Or maybe 16 + lifeschool's bonus system. Either way it is definitely beer o'clock Last edited by vagrant; 23 November 2017 at 09:54. |
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23 November 2017, 11:10 | #78 | |
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11 players (F1GP) 20,17,15,14,13,12,11,10,9,8,7 25 players (Apidya) (every competitor above 16 adds 1 point) 28,25,23,22,21,20,19,18,17,16,15,14,13,12,11,10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1 |
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23 November 2017, 11:52 | #79 |
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Ah ok, I thought 'dynamic' as in the current system.
Yeh it solves the spread problem, but I think keeping total points available each round consistent is more important. |
23 November 2017, 12:13 | #80 |
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Current system is 50% Fixed + 50% proportional compared to 1st place score.
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