Decisions in MAC emulation...

[JimDrew]

Originally Posted by Pheonix

Saved the config, put the MAC OS 7.5.3 CD in the drive & started the emulation. It booted just fine Clicked on Disk Tools the Apple HD SC Setup. No detectable drives. Clicked "shut down" on the menu.

I would expect this. Apple's HD SC Setup only works with Apple supported (brand) drives. You will need driver software that works with any hard drive brand. Same for real Macs too.

Originally Posted by Pheonix

Went back into HDToolBox & "Installed" the drive, but left it unpartitioned. Same thing. Created an Amiga partition, but didn't mount it. Same. A Unix partition. Same. Changed the block size from 1024 to 512 (read that MACs only work with 512 block sizes,) for both. Same both times. Installed the CrossMAC file system on the drive and partitioned it as a MAC drive. Again, same thing. gave up and just partitioned it as an amiga drive & mounted it.

Block size does not matter. That is all handled by the emulation. You can NEVER have anything else assigned to the partition, like CrossMac as that will interfere.

Originally Posted by Pheonix

Now, I'm back in with a system drive & booted to the OS 7.5.3 CD. Used the installer on the CD, selecting "Custom" install and the "any MAC" system files leaving the "this MAC" boxes un-checked. Went through and clicked everything else except the Mobility, Printer, & Network options. Finished, and did a "restart" to boot the the HDD instead of the CD. It ended up rebooting my entire Amiga.

What CPU are you using?

[Pheonix]

Sorry, RL reared its ugly head for a bit there. Meant to post yesterday. In emulation, many of the problems just went away when I did a fresh install and tried it again. Going to start re-installing the OS tweaks I'd installed one at a time and see which one causes the problem to come back.

Also, got the chip in, still comes up as Bad. It's the Z85C3008PSC chip. I did notice that the crystal, right above it, doesn't seem to fit in the socket exactly. All the pins are making contact, but it stands a little above the socket. I've attached a couple of pics to make things clearer. With 2 chips both reporting bad, odds are it's something else that's the actual issue. I just don't know enough to know what it could be.

[Pheonix]

I've been doing searches without having much luck. What is "different" with Apple HDDs? I've found references that the Apple SCSI standard is not completely compliant with the SCSI standard, but nothing mentioning how it differs. It just says that not all SCSI HDDs will work with Apple's SCSI controllers (including those in the early MACs. I'd sort of like to know what to look for instead of going with trial & error Of course, the controller on the Emplant may not have this issue.

Sorry, missed that about the HDD experimenting I was doing. That actually makes sense, the SW with the OS 7.5.3 CD has a preset list of drives with their individual settings (heads/cylinders/etc...) I had an old controller for my Amiga that was the same way. I had to manually enter the drives geometry to set it up (if it wasn't in the list already included on the disk, that is.) Only the MAC OS doesn't seem to offer that ability. Without knowing what is in that list, 3rd party it is Sort of problematical until I can find a way to get MAC disk images to a physical disk, though.

More on that. Connected the HD floppy up as DF0: with the Kylwalda removed and it now works fully (read/write.) Formatted Amiga HD disks which read fine with my Kryoflux. Formatted PC with CrossDOS that read fine in my USB floppy drive (and Kryoflux.) Formatted a MAC disk, which also read just fine from my Kryoflux. But in the MAC emulator, though it now actually tries to write, it comes up with error (-17). Which search says is "controlErr: IO System Errors " which I assume is some form of controller error. It is actually a drive with the a357 unit, could that have something to do with it? Working on a pristine build right now, and will try it without MFS or CrossMAC installed.

[Pheonix]

OK, finally got some more testing done. DiskCopy 4.2 appeared to be sporadic, but I did find a pattern, of sorts. When I first start the emulation, if it hangs for a bit at about 10% (just before the icons start appearing at the bottom,) DiskCopy will open just fine. If it smoothly boots right through, then DiskCopy will claim it won't run on this type of system. Will have to tear my A2000 apart for its HD drive for further testing (error -17 when DiskCopy actually tries to write.) Though I don't remember if the A2000 has an A357 modded drive or a Chinon 357A drive itself.

Would also like to note that, despite not having the physical chips for the others, I did some experimenting with other ROMs. Mac II & Mac IIx seem to almost always allow DiskCopy, the 2 Quadra systems almost never allow it (got it to work once,) and the IIci & IIfx seem to be about 50/50. In every case, I can Initialize floppies just fine.

I did a complete format & re-install of my A4000 system, and all the other problems have gone away. Not counting failure for direct SCSI of the drive to work, and that's a MAC side software issue, not emulator. Resetting just resets the emulation, and can shut down and start back up many times without a crash. So put all the other issues to rest. Really just want DiskCopy to work now.

Also, you asked, and I kept "finishing" my thoughts before I actually answered, forgetting to answer in the process. Sorry... Running CyberStorm Mk2 with 68060 (not EC, but full 68060,) at 50 Mhz, with the CyberSCSI attachment and 128 MB CPU RAM. Have 2 MB Chip RAM and 16 MB of motherboard RAM. A Seagate 34 GB 80(?) pin SCSI drive (with adapter.) The a357 modded floppy drive. SCSI 50-pin DVD-ROM drive. And an Indivision AGA MK2cr flicker fixer/scan doubler. The only other device (and it's removed for now, wanting to fix the "BAD" chip,) is the Emplant card. Currently looking for the Autoboot ROM (and the RAM requirements,) for it as well (though, that's moot if I can't work out what's wrong wit the Zilog chip.)

I did have the HD drive as DF1: with a kylwalda attached DD drive as DF0: but yanked it when trying to find out why the drive wouldn't write (it writes just fine now, with the kylwalda drive removed.) Don't know if something was loose on the A357 mod, or if the combination of A357 & kylwalda causes the problem (more testing on that in the future.)

[JimDrew]

Originally Posted by Pheonix

Sorry, RL reared its ugly head for a bit there. Meant to post yesterday. In emulation, many of the problems just went away when I did a fresh install and tried it again. Going to start re-installing the OS tweaks I'd installed one at a time and see which one causes the problem to come back.

Also, got the chip in, still comes up as Bad. It's the Z85C3008PSC chip. I did notice that the crystal, right above it, doesn't seem to fit in the socket exactly. All the pins are making contact, but it stands a little above the socket. I've attached a couple of pics to make things clearer. With 2 chips both reporting bad, odds are it's something else that's the actual issue. I just don't know enough to know what it could be.

Um... that's the wrong chip! That SCSI chip is a 53C80. The SCC (serial chip) is a 85C30. The chip you got is a 85C3008. I have now idea what chip that is! If the SCSI chip shows as BAD on the diagnostics program, then you need to purchase a 53C80. Now... keep in mind that we sold 3 different EMPLANT boards. One with SCSI and no serial, one with serial and no SCSI, and one with both SCSI and serial. Each board had it's own custom logic to prevent someone from just buying a SCSI (or serial) chip and plugging it into the board. So, if your board was originally SCC only, then it would not have come with a SCSI chip and putting on in the board won't do anything for you.

[JimDrew]

-17 is an unimplemented control call. This means that .sony driver (which handles the disk disks) is trying to make a call that is not supported. This sounds like a problem with the caches and the 060. I know I don't deliberately patch anything in Apple's DiskCopy program (nobody really used it, there were better options). When the emulation is running, flip to the Amiga side and go to the ICP and turn off all of the caches, then flip back to the Mac side and try using DiskCopy. If that works then it is 060 related. I rarely used the 060 because it was horrible for the Mac emulation. I had to patch the crap out of the Mac OS to even get the 060 to boot up, and it kills performance. My 33MHz 68040 system runs most things faster than a 50MHz 060. Apple never had support for the 060 because it basically offered no speed advantage over their 840AV machine.

Apple used only certain brand/size hard drives with their systems. So, their driver software only supported the ID's of those drives. That's why there was aftermarket hard drive software created that supported everything.

[Pheonix]

I have a 53C80, it's the horizontal chip right above the SCSI connector. Is there supposed to be a second one? The chip that comes up bad is the vertical chip just below the crystal. The Zilog Z85C3008PSC is the chip that was in that socket (the one below the crystal,) when I got the board.

[Pheonix]

Turning off all the caches didn't help I'll have to see how the drive in my 2000 works when I can tear it apart to get it out.

As for the 060, its what came on the CPU card when I bought the 4000. It also had a Picasso IV (but that had problems & I ended up selling it as not-completely-working,) an absurdly long SCSI cable (about 8',) and a tower conversion that was just plain (IMHO,) stupid. I ended up buying a desktop case for it, and playing lets test the chips & components with the entire MB (just to make sure.) He also had 4 16 MB SIMMs installed into the motherboard RAM sockets (needless to say, this ended up providing a grand total of 0 MBs of RAM.) About the only thing done right was the 2 MB stick in the Chip RAM socket. He also removed the battery from the board with a pair of fairly long wires (which was smart IMHO.) But then, he mounted the batter itself on front panel up near the drives, where it could leak all over the CPU card & it's RAM (if it started leaking.) No signs of leakage though.

I'm afraid I don't know anything about the MAC, really. So, I don't know what the options are. I'm mainly just trying to get the disk images I currently have access too into a format for easy archival & restore on my PC. The problem is that there aren't many (any that I can find so far,) PC utilities for this. My plan was to get them onto floppy then use my PC HW to make acceptable format images (probably just use my Kryoflux for that.)

[JimDrew]

What "disk images" do you have? There are programs for Windows that can open and extract .stx and other disk image formats.

I have never seen an 85C30 with a 08PSC on the end.. that didn't come with the board that we shipped. However, if the diagnostic program passes the SCC testing then it must be good (as well as the crystal as that is for the SCC).

[Pheonix]

The Amiga Hardware Database has an image that shows that exact chip on the Emplant card... Is this the wrong chip for that socket? I'd sort of like to find the correct chip, as the guy I bought this one from is mailing me a replacement tomorrow. If its the wrong chip, I can tell him never mind on that.

Most of the ones I was working towards are .image or .bin files. DiskCopy 4.2 loads them but fails on the write. Every tool I've found for windows, so far, converts them to other MAC formats, but won't let me write them to floppy or convert them to a format that I can use with my Kryoflux. Or even to a format that I can use in one of the other converters to get them to Kryoflux capable format. The closest I've come so far is to use DiskCopy 6.? to mount the image then copy it to a physical disk manually. Not exactly what I would prefer (don't know if the MAC hides files or not.)

[JimDrew]

Are these low density (400K/800K) or high density (1.44MB) images? Send me one of your disk images to data @ cbmstuff.com. I can look at it to see if it just just a simple wrapper where you can use the Converter II to write it in EMPLANT disk format.

If you had a SuperCard Pro instead of Kryoflux, I know you could write them.

Yeah, that picture shows the same chip. Maybe we had those on the boards. I didn't pay too much attention to the production after the first few thousand shipped out, it was on auto-pilot after that.

[dalek]

My totally unrelated to the others emplant board has Z85C3008PSC SCC chip too. So I think they were shipped with them.

The socketed crystal on Pheonix's is interesting though. Mine is soldered to the board.

[Pheonix]

They're 1.44 MB images. I sent one off to you. I hope zip format is OK. If not, let me know what you prefer and I'll send it again. I'm fully aware of the 400/800 K image difficulties, which is why I asked about Fusion and the A-Max cartridge a few posts back.

I got the Kryoflux when they first came out. I didn't even know the SuperCard Pro even existed back then. I keep intending to get one, but it's not exactly high on my list. Want to get the classic systems I have now fully up and running first (keep coming across parts I need, which eats up my budget.) I'll probably get a Cybervision or Picasso card for my 4000 first. Need to get a 1010 for my Atari (dozens of tapes, nothing to read them with.) Really want to get a DolphinDOS package for my 128D. Need an FA18 chip for my TI-99/4A. Of those, the DolphinDOS & RTG are the only ones that aren't really necessary. But I'll still probably get them first, as the Kryoflux gets the job done (most of the time.)

[Pheonix]

Dalek, could you get me a pic of the back of the board behind your crystal? I'm wondering Mine has 14 soldered pins from the socket. Wondering if yours has just the 4 mounting holes or all 14.

[dalek]

The corner pins are soldered with the legs of the crystal.
The ones in between are just filled through holes - solder is flat and it all looks original.


If I get a chance on the weekend I'll run the diag and see if it comes up as good.

[dalek]

Also see here: https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?...-in-a-68k-mac/ for how to setup a SCSI2SD with SCSI vendor and product strings to make it look like a mac drive.

[Hewitson]

Originally Posted by JimDrew

Each board had it's own custom logic to prevent someone from just buying a SCSI (or serial) chip and plugging it into the board.

Lame.

[Pheonix]

Well, I tracked down where the refusal to restart comes from. Install Boing Bag 2 and Fusion starts refusing to run a second time after shutting down the emulation. Trying to do so just locks up the computer. Upgrading to 7.5.5 or installing 8.1 from the beginning, fixes the problem where restarting the emulation reboots the entire system.

Now to get the floppy drive working right on my physical system at least. Would be nice for the emulation as well.

May all be a moot point. Waiting on second chip (seller is sending a replacement,) to try and fix my Emplant card. If it still comes up as "BAD", I'll probably switch the 2 differential chips between serial ports A & B to see if either of those have gone bad. It fails when it does the 57600 BAUD test.

[dalek]

Mine passes the SCC test just fine. The two left CIAs though come up as bad. Not sure if this is because I am on a PAL system or not. Since they are cheap I ordered another two from Chinabay to rule them out.

Pheonix - does yours come up as the Deluxe model in the diagnostic?

[Pheonix]

Dalek: Yes, it comes up as Deluxe.

Pretty much ruled the floppy issue as something to do with Apple's DiskCopy program. Have now tried 2 other programs for writing disk images back to disk and they both worked just fine in both emulation and on my physical system. So, going to leave DiskCopy off and pick one of the others to use. Going to see if I can find one that works with most, if not all, of the image formats used.

I did find out from JimDrew that Fusion was written around OS 3.1 for the most part as 3.9 didn't exist yet when it came out. As part of that conversation, I discovered the OS 3.9 wasn't actually written by Commodore. It came out 6 years after Commodore shut down. Since I own the CD, I'm probably going to go ahead and stick with 3.9 (though I'll do testing with 3.1 as well eventually.) The problem with 3.1 is it has to be patched to handle large hard drives. While patching allows me to install and run Workbench just fine, Fusion doesn't recognize the patch as being present. If I end up getting another HDD and setting it up as MAC only, this won't be an issue. But putting it on my current HDD would be problematical at best.