Submit your best idea for the most realistic path to open source Amiga OS 3.x

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by Minuous

@eXeler0:

I agree, it is only equivalent to OS3.1 and thus useless for modern (ie. OS3.5 or later) programs. Originally I thought it would get upgraded to handle this but it seems not...

equivalent to 3.1?

LOL





what are some of you guys taking? Good advice... drop it

[Minuous]

@OlafSchl:

Yes, see http://aros.sourceforge.net/introduction/index.php

Are you claiming it is equivalent to OS3.5/3.9, even though it is missing the entire ReAction subsystem?

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by Minuous

@OlafSchl:

Yes, see http://aros.sourceforge.net/introduction/index.php

Are you claiming it is equivalent to OS3.5/3.9, even though it is missing the entire ReAction subsystem?

Class Act works (if we talk about Aros 68k). For what exactly do you need Reaction? Which software on 68k needs it?

Reaction might work too but never tested it because of both no software and closed

then you say MorphOS is not useful for modern software either?

3.1 has Reaction?

[wawa]

Originally Posted by Minuous

@OlafSchl:

Yes, see http://aros.sourceforge.net/introduction/index.php

Are you claiming it is equivalent to OS3.5/3.9, even though it is missing the entire ReAction subsystem?

so you are again at your holy path against aros because they have not implemented the whole reaction subsystem? and you have read that in the specs, so you dont even need to try it out for yourself, right. your opinion las all set and you can screem now all around that aros is only 3.1 compatible and even that is incomplete.

1. aros 68k developers were paid to provide aros kickstart, and not to reimplement each and every system extension there was. if you are interested in it and you are a programmer you are free to do that yourself.

2. reaction has nothing to do with "modernity" its just one of the optional gui systems. in most cases you can freely download and use classact classes instead. i tried a number of classact/reaction apps from aminet with aros, and they worked. try a-web for example. chris_y netsurf wont work as is, because it explicitly checks for library versions, but his source is open.

3. reaction is useless on other platforms except 68k. there are no apps that require it. aros developers certainly wont waste their time with something useless to them just because someone who doesnt want to use their work anyway demands it.

[OlafSch]

@eXeler0

Nobody talks about aros as only option for vampire or a potential future standalone device. But when gunnar said for logical reasons they prefer aros as future main system (still patched 3.X as second option but without supporting new features) there was suddenly a lot of moaning and whining, the same people mostly who start whining if P96 owner suddenly wants money because they see a chance to get some. That is the world... you cannot expect to get commercial software for free, at least not if there is a chance to make some quick bucks and I cannot blame them. Either pay for it or support open source or stop whining simple as that... If people want to spend their time discussing unrealistic options it is their choice

[Minuous]

There are dozens if not hundreds of such programs on Aminet.

A complete implementation will have full support for all components. Especially for the standard GUI of the OS.

>if you are interested in it and you are a programmer you are free to do that yourself.

No, when I suggested the goal be changed from OS3.1 to OS3.9 and had the time and inclination to help towards that the idea was rejected.

>3. reaction is useless on other platforms except 68k. there are no apps that require it.

A lot of OS3.5/3.9/4.x software requires it, after all it has been the standard Amiga GUI for 18 years.

>someone who doesnt want to use their work anyway demands it.

If it was complete I probably would use it. I'm not demanding anything, just pointing out the most obvious deficiency. Not trying to flame anyone, I just find the policies and priorities being defended very strange.

To answer the thread title, improving AROS to the point where it was equal to 3.9 or 4.x in speed, compatibility and completeness would seem the best option. However the AROS people seem not wanting to do that, therefore the remaining best options would seem to be for the community to attempt to buy the 3.9 source code from H&P or to disassemble/decompile OS3.9 and merge the improvements into the leaked 3.1 code.

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by Minuous

There are dozens if not hundreds of such programs on Aminet.

A complete implementation will have full support for all components. Especially for the standard GUI of the OS.

hundreds?



http://aminet.net/search?query=reaction

38 including examples

[Samurai_Crow]

3.1 doesn't come with ReAct. It was added to 3.5+.

[idrougge]

Originally Posted by Akira

As for their contributions, we will just have to agree to disagree. I don't think anyone needing to get into Amiga emulation, old or new, should be paying for it. And I will repeat my point of before: more people using an emulator does not mean to me a betterment or enlargement of the "scene", what I want to see is development being empowered, not number of users being enlarged, and every dime spent on a Cloanto pack is a dime that probably doesn't go to an Amiga software or hardware developer, especially considering that the people who get their knickers on a twist about the legality of an Amiga ROM and go buy some Cloanto garbage have NO ISSUES going to Planetemu and downloading all the ADFs they can get their fingers at without paying a dime.

This.

[eXeler0]

@wawa

(Skipping the quoted-answer (with one exception), would get too messy)

This thread is about asking everyone who wants, to contribute with good ideas. The one's I listed are examples to get the conversation going. If I thought they were the perfect solution, I would have no reason to start the topic, would I?

The thing that has changed IMO for the last years since I returned from being away from the Amiga is some sort of re-ignation in the community.. Its thanx to the Vampire boars, the Kickstarter campaigns for cases and keys, the free release of WHDLoad.. and so on.. I think the community is in a better shape today than maybe 3 years ago. So there might be other re-awakened ppl who would want to get involved. More people that care = better chance to get something rolling..

Question about logical induction. You claim to use it with great accuracy.. Did you accurately envision the installed user base of AROS users 22 years into development?

About "who needs updated OS":
I think its about convenience among other things.. even if only a few new things were coded, it would allow ppl to put together different / more customized and appealing distributions of the OS without so much hassle and/or fear of legal troubles.

Regarding sources beyond 3.1..
It might rely on negotiating skills or it may be money.. ort it may be about principle... Maybe they didn't like OS4. Legally speaking it should be less messy dealing with individuals though..

"fine. thats your lazy attitude. you want people to do stuff ready for you to enjoy immediately without even lifting a finger, a perfect product for no money, except you like talk about this on forums. why not. do as you please. "

Is that the conclusion you arrived at? Not sure where to begin dissecting this quite bizarre statement.
First of all, this thread is about contributing with best ideas of how to get oS3.x open sourced. If it turns out it can't be done, then fine, that's an answer too.
Second, I am willing to contribute financially to crowd funding or bounties if it is agreed that is the best way to do it.
Third, I pay for my other OS:es and software that allow me to work efficiently.

[Minuous]

http://aminet.net/search?readme=reaction
197
http://aminet.net/search?readme=classact
90
http://aminet.net/search?readme=os3....]=m68k-amigaos
159
http://aminet.net/search?readme=os3....]=m68k-amigaos
94

Plus most OS4 applications, etc.

[wawa]

Originally Posted by eXeler0

Right now I have 2 small kids that need a lot of my attention

please leave the personal stuff out of the discussion. we all have our limits. thats not the question here. either you contribute something or not. right now its only hot air.

My point with the several examples I listed was that things change eventually. I tend to think the current owners are milking a very sick cow, therefore I think throwing money at it could make them willing to part with it.

it was the same ten years ago. we all know it. nothing changed in this respect.

Edit: (And this is where I can currently contribute.. By supporting e.g. crowd-funding or bounties financially..)

as you please..

Well you can reverse that reasoning too.. How many ppl are interested in a standalone Vampire/Natami if it only runs AROS?

we are not proposing you a requirement but a solution. vampire is built with amiga compatibility in mind. you can run whatever system you want i suppose. 1.3, 2.1, 3.1, 3.9, aros68k.. the choice should be yours based on your expectations and requirements. aros68k wont make your genuine kickstarts incmpatible with vampire, same as they wont gain features aros provides in turn.

I assume, that like for me, AROS offers nothing new that they have requested without sacrificing something they'd rather keep.

if aros offers nothing new, what would be that "new" that open sources of amiga os or even os4 would offer you. can you reiterate in order to understand your ratio?

Trust me, I absolutely never requested anyone to work on AROS 68k for me or anyone else, I only suggested that if the 3.x source would finally become available it would make sense to merge the efforts rather than having resources spread in yet another split..

with whom do you want to merge the efforts? name someone. im all for it. just i dont see anyone. ask gunnar, or where have you been all this time, when p96 and kickstart licensing discussion took place?

Yes, I do realize ppl work on this as a hobbyist project and have done it for decades - which shows some commitment, I respect that. Unfortunately, the same people still seem to hope that "if you build it, they will come".

thats not the attitude. they are doing it for themselves. hardly anyone evangelizes aros on forums, except me, perhaps, but im actually only interested in its 68k branch as opportunity for the amiga to eventually gain some extended features ..and the control of the community upon the os.

Well.. the ~200 ppl (I got the number from amigamap.com, but it might be wrong) who agreed with that path are already there...
Wawa and you call discussions like this a waste of time, so I think it's motivated to ask what you call an OS 22 years in the making with so few users.

you think there is exactly so many aros, morphos or amiga users as registered on some amigamap? i have never registered to any map, but according to the map you seem to poin to there is 250 os4.1 users out there. aros is not bad in comparison isnt it?

even if some whine more then others ;-)

again. i have offered realistic options and corrected your invalid information. i offered detailed help on the subject to the people who are probably more knowledgable than me, just maybe too stubborn to consider an option. i have not engaged in whining about the bad bad entities that keep rightfuly yours amiga os away from you.

[wawa]

Originally Posted by Minuous

http://aminet.net/search?readme=reaction
197
http://aminet.net/search?readme=classact
90
http://aminet.net/search?readme=os3.5&arch[]=m68k-amigaos
159
http://aminet.net/search?readme=os3.9&arch[]=m68k-amigaos
94

Plus most OS4 applications, etc.

have you seen how many of these applications are actually marked as 68k and how many are os4?

i have counted by hand: 14

and im pretty sure most if not all of them will run on aros68k with classact.

[Minuous]

Of course on 68K AROS, missing components can be replaced by proprietary AmigaOS components. But the point of 68K AROS presumably is to replace those proprietary AmigaOS components with open source AROS ones. If AmigaOS is needed anyway then one may as well just use AmigaOS.

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by Minuous

http://aminet.net/search?readme=reaction
197
http://aminet.net/search?readme=classact
90
http://aminet.net/search?readme=os3.5&arch[]=m68k-amigaos
159
http://aminet.net/search?readme=os3.9&arch[]=m68k-amigaos
94

Plus most OS4 applications, etc.

OS4 applications run on 3.9?

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by Minuous

Of course on 68K AROS, missing components can be replaced by proprietary AmigaOS components. But the point of 68K AROS presumably is to replace those proprietary AmigaOS components with open source AROS ones. If AmigaOS is needed anyway then one may as well just use AmigaOS.

you can at least install Class Act

which relevant application needs Reaction (on 68k)?

to take your first link:
AEMail230.lha Classact
AmiBabel Classact
Aweb Classact
BetaScan (both ClassAct and Reaction)
ChatBox ClassAct

and so on

[wawa]

Originally Posted by eXeler0

Is that the conclusion you arrived at? Not sure where to begin dissecting this quite bizarre statement.

because i encounter that too often. people start disscussing something they would like to have, as if they would like to put some effort into it. then they are presented with an option, that admittedly needs still some work. which would do them good. being able to contribute is a fine feeling. but thats not what they want, instead they start to complain about this and that because it has not been served to them for free on a silver plate, warm and ready to eat.

this is btw not restricted to amigaos vs aros. same problem with updating odyssey for os4 or many other examples. its a behaviour pattern.

[Minuous]

>OS4 applications run on 3.9?

No, but it might be feasible to port some of them to AROS if there was more support in AROS for OS3.5/3.9/4 features such as ReAction.

Originally Posted by OlafSch

which relevant application needs Reaction (on 68k)?

MCE and Report+, there are probably others also. Limiting applications to using only ancient ClassAct features instead of making use of improvements made in OS3.5/3.9/4 is not the way forward. The point is: apps wanting to be compatible with AROS have to be crippled to not use all AmigaOS features; an OS replacement should be able to replace that OS and run all its programs. Just replacing OS3.1 with something bigger and slower is probably not very useful to most people, especially now that the real OS3.1 source code has leaked.

And the situation with AROS x86 is even worse as it doesn't support emulating any 68K/PPC code.

[eXeler0]

Originally Posted by wawa

please leave the personal stuff out of the discussion. we all have our limits. thats not the question here. either you contribute something or not. right now its only hot air.

Umm.. I was answering to Olaf, highlighting the fact we cant all do the same thing, because we are in different situations in life.

Originally Posted by wawa

if aros offers nothing new, what would be that "new" that open sources of amiga os or even os4 would offer you. can you reiterate in order to understand your ratio?

I answered that in the post directed at you. Its about the convenience of building on something already present in so many users Amigas..

Originally Posted by wawa

with whom do you want to merge the efforts? name someone. im all for it. just i dont see anyone. ask gunnar, or where have you been all this time, when p96 and kickstart licensing discussion took place?

If no one wants to merge, then fine. The 3.x branch would stand on its own feet just fine.

Originally Posted by wawa

you think there is exactly so many aros, morphos or amiga users as registered on some amigamap? i have never registered to any map, but according to the map you seem to poin to there is 250 os4.1 users out there. aros is not bad in comparison isnt it?

I'm not exactly sure how your thinking goes..

I write something like this:
"Well.. the ~200 ppl (I got the number from amigamap.com, but it might be wrong)"

and you answer:
"you think there is exactly so many aros, morphos or amiga users as registered on some amigamap?"

No dear wawa- that's NOT what i think.. It's the best estimate I can get from a source that tracks users online.
If you have trouble understanding what I'm saying, I can try harder to be more clear.

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by Minuous

>OS4 applications run on 3.9?

No, but it might be feasible to port some of them to AROS if there was more support in AROS for OS3.5/3.9/4 features such as ReAction.



MCE and Report+, there are probably others also. Limiting applications to using only ancient ClassAct features instead of making use of improvements made in OS3.5/3.9/4 is not the way forward. The point is: apps wanting to be compatible with AROS have to be crippled to not use all AmigaOS features; an OS replacement should be able to replace that OS and run all its programs. Just replacing OS3.1 with something bigger and slower is probably not very useful to most people, especially now that the real OS3.1 source code has leaked.

but limiting applications to something ancient like amigaos is no way forward either

even if 4.X would be backported it would still be ancient

MESA/Gallium? Support of modern USB? SMP? More than 4 GB RAM?

I do not see the 4.X line as a real way forward but that is a matter of taste. The only new software developed for 4.X is the software financed by a-eon and now and then updates of small utilities. To get really new software you would need new development tools and you would need something running on modern hardware and fully supporting it. I do not see that there. On 68k most software not written in traditional GUI was developed based on MUI, not Reaction.