Discussion about the cost and value of new Amiga games and whether they are overcharged or not!

[malko]

Originally Posted by mcgeezer

[...] this sort of shit makes me want to program an Atari ST.

Erg... Pay attention mate, you know what is said about "crap ST port "

Edit: @Steril707 : You are right and we should not forget that the price for digital dowload was the starting point of the discussion.
I also think that the thread title doesn't fit at best (in other hand I understand that while moving posts it's difficult to clearly think about the best formulation for a title. For sure something that can be changed now )

[spudje]

Since my return to the Amiga I paid for a couple of games. Both because I have the money now and paying off my guilt for all the pirated games I played back when I was a kid. Games I bought are:
- Tanks Furry (boxed)
- Reshoot (boxed)
- Worthy (download)
- Bridge Strike (download)
- Power Glove (download)
- Skill Grid (download)
- Tiger Claw (download)
- Pre-order of the eternally (?) postponed Alarcity

I passed on Re-Shoot R because of price. And as you can see, I started buying boxed editions, but they climbed and climbed in prices (and I also ran out of space), so I now only buy digital versions.

A good price for an new (let's be honest "homebrew", which most of them more or less are) Amiga game for download I'm willing to afford is around 10 euro. 40+ prices I only am willing to pay for AAA titles on contemporary platforms.

I do think the developers should realise, with the gaining of retro popularity, and thinking of asking mainstream prices another "retro" phenomenon is around the corner: warez! I don't think that's something we want. It will demotivate all these people that started to make cool games again for our beloved platform.

So I guess there is somewhere an optimum price wise, which I have the feeling Damien and I have a similar idea about

[spudje]

Originally Posted by mcgeezer

So I'll spend 1000 hours creating and developing a game for free for people to digitally download and enjoy.

Sorry, but exactly how does this business model work?

Wake-up call: It doesn't

Not for a hobby/retro platform like the Amiga. Getting some financial reward for the time and material you put in makes sense, but don't expect to have a positive business case here (especially if you take hours into the calculation).

If you want to make a business with game development, choose a contemporary platform with a big enough user base.

[Tigerskunk]

Originally Posted by spudje

Since my return to the Amiga I paid for a couple of games. Both because I have the money now and paying off my guilt for all the pirated games I played back when I was a kid. Games I bought are:
- Tanks Furry (boxed)
- Reshoot (boxed)
- Worthy (download)
- Bridge Strike (download)
- Power Glove (download)
- Skill Grid (download)
- Tiger Claw (download)
- Pre-order of the eternally (?) postponed Alarcity

I passed on Re-Shoot R because of price. And as you can see, I started buying boxed editions, but they climbed and climbed in prices (and I also ran out of space), so I now only buy digital versions.

A good price for an new (let's be honest "homebrew", which most of them more or less are) Amiga game for download I'm willing to afford is around 10 euro. 40+ prices I only am willing to pay for AAA titles on contemporary platforms.

I do think the developers should realise, with the gaining of retro popularity, and thinking of asking mainstream prices another "retro" phenomenon is around the corner: warez! I don't think that's something we want. It will demotivate all these people that started to make cool games again for our beloved platform.

So I guess there is somewhere an optimum price wise, which I have the feeling Damien and I have a similar idea about

I don't have a problem with someone playing my game for free (or calling it a "homebrew", since that's what it is.), and there is the option for the trained/"cracked" game. Like I wrote, I see the price someone pays for the digital download as a "thank you" to the developer.

On the boxed editions though, you people should just see the work that goes into them.
I concur, this needs to be adressed on a case to case level. If a box is shoddy, and 40 euros are asked for this is obviously not tolerable.

But, many people are asking for those super duper high quality collectable boxes with goodies and glossy professionally printed manuals in them with a nice cover (which also someone needs to paint/draw).

That's a shit load of work to create, and these things cost a lot of money to get made and that's the point.

[spudje]

I agree costs put into a boxed version should be covered. However shouldn't we all realise that maybe, despite all the retro hype, the Amiga is simply not a viable enough platform anymore to justify these expensive (cost wise) boxed releases?

[mcgeezer]

Originally Posted by spudje

Wake-up call: It doesn't

Not for a hobby/retro platform like the Amiga. Getting some financial reward for the time and material you put in makes sense, but don't expect to have a positive business case here (especially if you take hours into the calculation).

If you want to make a business with game development, choose a contemporary platform with a big enough user base.

Tell this to Hewitson - it's his business model not mine.

I'd be quite happy making enough money from game dev to travel to a few Amiga conventions throughout the year.... any Amiga dev doing it for a job will be in trouble.

[roondar]

One off-topic question here: is there a thread on EAB or other place where I can find which games are newly released Amiga? I ask because I've seen several games mentioned I didn't know about.

Back on-topic: I think one of the things that plays a role for me in accepting/not accepting pricing for retro games is the non-retro games market. The simple fact is that economies of scale have allowed for game developers to release certain types of games for much less money than used to be the case. There are still exceptions to this, but many "retro styled" indy games for PC/Mac/etc are available at very reasonable prices. Often while offering more features/content than new games released on retro platforms. It's perhaps not entirely fair to compare games like that, but I think it is part of what is being done here.

Looking at myself, I find myself ever more reluctant to pay full price for "AAA" games because there are just so many good indy games for a fraction of the cost. And this "bleeds" into my retro purchases as well: if a Steam released indy game offering me hours and hours of entertainment only costs me around 10-20 euro's, why exactly would I want to spend more than that on an Amiga game?

I still do so from time to time because I like supporting the talented people who make these games (and the Amiga is my hobby), but I'd be lying if I didn't acknowledge that it's harder to justify for some of the prices I see.

[buzzybee]

Originally Posted by spudje

So I guess there is somewhere an optimum price wise, which I have the feeling Damien and I have a similar idea about

My 4 year old daughter wishes to be a princess, but she needs to learn that not all wishes come true. A very low asking price of 5 EUR or even less can be found on some popular modern platforms like iPhone, Switch for a reason: Because the industry developed business models which work with such low asking prices. Developers may hope for sales in the millions, and they may include ads or put objects behind paywalls to earn money. None of this works on Amiga (right now)

Here are the facts - Attention, almost serious calculation incoming!

On Amiga, you can sell about 400 digital copies within one year if you got a great game of very good quality and are willing to spend many days on community events and on social media platforms. Otherwise sales will be much lower. Let´s consider an asking price of 5 EUR for a digital version. Subtract 19% VAT tax in Germany: 4.2 EUR remain. Deduct fees for money transaction, digital distribution: 2.30 EUR remain. So we got 400 x 2.30 EUR = 920 EUR of sales income. Deduct income tax and guess what remains then.

So, if a developer of an Amiga game hopes to at least cover some fixed costs, he NEEDS to charge more. Otherwise he will not only spend thousand of hours, but also pay all the bills himself; and it remains to be seen, how long he is able to do that (or how long his wife is tolerating this crazy action)

[Tigerskunk]

Originally Posted by spudje

I agree costs put into a boxed version should be covered. However shouldn't we all realise that maybe, despite all the retro hype, the Amiga is simply not a viable enough platform anymore to justify these expensive (cost wise) boxed releases?

You have to see those boxed editions as simply an option for those who collect.
You don't need to buy them.

Personally, I couldn't care less about them.

The general consensus on collectable boxes seems to be, though, that those people who collect want higher quality boxes and are willing to pay the prices for them.

[spudje]

Originally Posted by buzzybee

So, if a developer of an Amiga game hopes to at least cover some fixed costs, he NEEDS to charge more. Otherwise he will not only spend thousand of hours, but also pay all the bills himself; and it remains to be seen, how long he is able to do that (or how long his wife is tolerating this crazy action)

That's exactly what I'm saying, Amiga is NOT a viable platform to develop a decent game for with a break-even, let alone positive business case. Either put some money/time in it yourself out of love for the platform or move to a more profitable platform.

Originally Posted by Steril707

You have these boxed editions as simply an option for those who collect.
You don't need to buy them.
Personally, I couldn't care less about them.

Fully agree, as you can see I stopped buying them. Although if developers think they can up the price for downloadable games to partly cover for the boxed version costs, they'll only harm themselves I guess.

[nikosidis]

Is your opinion here that every game should be 10$ or less not matter quality?
Sorry, but to me it is rediculos. I don't understand why they put so low price on a quality game like Worthy.
I would not put 10$ on a quality game like Inviyya either. Digital quality game should at least be 15$
It will not sell less for that price is my opinion. If it sell less it will be maybe 10% and the calculation is easy.

[Galahad/FLT]

If you're writing Amiga games to make money.... you're over 20 years too late.

If you're expecting your 1000 hours of work to be financially rewarded that covers that time..... you're over 20 years too late.

If you expect a reasonable contribution toward your efforts...... then there you will find many people in agreement, and they'll actually stump up the cash as well.

Like I said, people are entirely free to sell their games for whatever the hell they like, but coincidentally, those customers are entirely free to pass on your game.

I think the general consensus is, collectors will pay a reasonable sum for a boxed copy of a game, everyone else that doesn't have time for that or the room for that but wish to support the developer are happy to pay a reasonable sum for a digital copy.

I think if EVERYONE (and that really does mean everyone in this thread!) considers that, EVERYONE is likely to be getting what they want, and Amiga games development will continue with people happy to develop, and those happy to pay something toward it.

Seems pretty reasonable to me.

[DamienD]

Originally Posted by buzzybee

So one of the mods moved this discussion from the "Rotator"-thread right here. Wise move. But by choosing such a biased title ("Discussion about Game Developers overvaluing their products") @DamienD again proves that he is not at all interested in discussion, but rather in spreading his own opinion.

How so? What do you propose this thread title should be then?

Originally Posted by malko

Edit: @Steril707 : You are right and we should not forget that the price for digital dowload was the starting point of the discussion.

Exactly

Originally Posted by malko

I also think that the thread title doesn't fit at best (in other hand I understand that while moving posts it's difficult to clearly think about the best formulation for a title. For sure something that can be changed now )

Same question to you, what do you propose this thread title should be then?

Originally Posted by roondar

One off-topic question here: is there a thread on EAB or other place where I can find which games are newly released Amiga? I ask because I've seen several games mentioned I didn't know about.

Back on-topic: I think one of the things that plays a role for me in accepting/not accepting pricing for retro games is the non-retro games market. The simple fact is that economies of scale have allowed for game developers to release certain types of games for much less money than used to be the case. There are still exceptions to this, but many "retro styled" indy games for PC/Mac/etc are available at very reasonable prices. Often while offering more features/content than new games released on retro platforms. It's perhaps not entirely fair to compare games like that, but I think it is part of what is being done here.

Looking at myself, I find myself ever more reluctant to pay full price for "AAA" games because there are just so many good indy games for a fraction of the cost. And this "bleeds" into my retro purchases as well: if a Steam released indy game offering me hours and hours of entertainment only costs me around 10-20 euro's, why exactly would I want to spend more than that on an Amiga game?

I still do so from time to time because I like supporting the talented people who make these games (and the Amiga is my hobby), but I'd be lying if I didn't acknowledge that it's harder to justify for some of the prices I see.

Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT

If you're writing Amiga games to make money.... you're over 20 years too late.

If you're expecting your 1000 hours of work to be financially rewarded that covers that time..... you're over 20 years too late.

If you expect a reasonable contribution toward your efforts...... then there you will find many people in agreement, and they'll actually stump up the cash as well.

Like I said, people are entirely free to sell their games for whatever the hell they like, but coincidentally, those customers are entirely free to pass on your game.

I think the general consensus is, collectors will pay a reasonable sum for a boxed copy of a game, everyone else that doesn't have time for that or the room for that but wish to support the developer are happy to pay a reasonable sum for a digital copy.

I think if EVERYONE (and that really does mean everyone in this thread!) considers that, EVERYONE is likely to be getting what they want, and Amiga games development will continue with people happy to develop, and those happy to pay something toward it.

Seems pretty reasonable to me.

Anyway, let's put up a simple poll in this thread where people vote. I'll use your pricing strategy here Richard; as your game seems to be the only one where the digital download price virtually mirrors the physical copy (see the list I put together in this post).

[nikosidis]

What would be better than if Amiga devs. Felt their investment into doing a game was worth it. This is how Both game developers and people should think.

[nikosidis]

If you make a crap game dont expect much sales. Even billion dollar movies can be crap. Make a great game like Wothy or Resoot R and expect to get some appriciation.

[nikosidis]

A poll here? At least put it in Commodore Amiga on face.

[manossg]

I feel this thread went completely overboard with the poll. Please, fine Amiga people, cool down.

[DamienD]

What's wrong with a poll? It gives a good indication as to what people's thought are without having to comment. Nobody is forcing anyone to vote...

[mcgeezer]

Yes, remove the poll please.... it’s not going to help the situation.

[BippyM]

I have retitled the thread, and might even lock it and start a new thread where this can be discussed better. Clearly there's not just the issue of the price of games that have been brought up here, but certain behaviours too.